Today, a Nigerian-American doula based in New York named Theresa Lasbrey-Peters shares her two experiences giving birth in her 40s in a hospital without medication or interventions. As she narrates her journey through two pregnancies, she explains how important research, informed decision-making, and self-advocacy were for her. She exudes a refreshing level of confidence in refusing medical interventions during births. She also details a bit on her experience using Hypnobabies. Losing her mother during her 2nd pregnancy reframed what mattered and what didn’t. Theresa came to doula work as she realized the value of providing support for the birthing parent during the postpartum phase. She also shares about the critical role of oxytocin and her work as an Orgasmic Birth Practitioner, highlighting the potential for birth to be an empowering and beautiful experience.

Resources:

Theresa Lasbrey Peters’s website: nnennabirth.com / IG: @nnennabirth
Theresa’s doula, Tiombe Bowman - @illuminatingdoula
Evidence Based Birth Suspected Big Babies (see Assumption #3)
Theresa on the Orgasmic Birth podcast
Orgasmic Birth* (film)
Northern Manhattan Perinatal Partnership
NYC Citywide Doula Initiative

Sponsor links:

Free “Pack for Your Best Birth” Packing List (with free mini-course option)
Free “Smart Questions to Ask Your Care Provider” Checklist
East River Doula Collective (find a doula, attend our free “Meet the Doulas” event)
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens and virtual)
Birth Matters Online/Self-Paced Course

*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.

Episode Topics:

Getting pregnant with first 39, having first at 43
Lots of testing due to her age
Went into labor just after her due date on May 9
She felt “funny” the day she went into labor
Hired a doula (Tiombe Bowman) and did tons of research
Developed a birth plan with visuals/icons
Started going to Evidence Based Birth to educate herself
She opted out of pelvic exams toward the end of pregnancy
Requested delayed cord clamping
Didn’t want pitocin or IV, but agreed to hep lock
She had done some of hypnobabies
Day of going into birth, she practiced hypnobirthing
Eating, walking around, lost her mucous plug, bloody show, kept using bathroom
Lots of BMs, going back and forth between shower and toilet
Wasn’t painful, but was pressure
Relanguaging that hypnobirthing used helped her – expansions instead of contractions, pressure waves, etc.
Lots of heartburn, drinking coconut water
Her husband kept farting
Feels urge to push and calls doula to come
Huge traffic jam on highway, go to surface roads and husband runs lights going from Bronx to pick up doula in Harlem to go to Lenox Hill
She walks into triage with urge to push and everyone kind of freaks out when they realize she’s 9cm; she asks everyone to get out
She vomits on all fours and water breaks simultaneously
2-3 pushes and baby is born, 26 min after arriving at hospital after laboring at home for 12 hours
Breastfeeding after birth, disrupted by circumcision
“Colostrum is the champagne of breastmilk”
Baby was 2½, she was still nursing; one day she had a visceral, negative response to feeding
Took a pregnancy test and she was pregnant; that was what was causing her aversion
2nd pregnancy, she developed gestational diabetes but denied it until she learned her mom had passed
Her daughter was due April 24th, it comes and goes
Concern about placenta previa
Bryn and Bryce are her children’s names
Scheduled induction for May 8th
She told her OB she was going into labor April 30th, which was the case
She had a prodromal labor and was still in labor May 2nd
Frantically cleaning the house, doing laundry
Heading to hospital, car ride super uncomfortable with the bumps
8cm upon arrival to hospital, there for 6 hours with doula
Nurse suggested nipple stimulation, which her husband did and it worked
Doctor comes and does something physical with her consent
Her daughter is born, overwhelmed by having two
Pushed on her side because she was tired
Why she went into doula work - started during pandemic with postpartum doula work and then eventually moved into birth and lactation work
Is becoming an orgasmic birth practitioner

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today I have with me a fellow local doula, Theresa. Hi Theresa.

Theresa: Hi.

Lisa: Thanks so much for coming to share your birth stories.

Theresa: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Lisa: I just wanna mention that Theresa and I have shared, I think just virtual spaces probably, ever since the pandemic.

A lot of our birth worker meetups are conveniently on Zoom, and so we've shared some spaces, I think in like a perinatal connection networking group and another group as well. And as I had chatted with her in one of those spaces, fairly recently, I just was captivated. Theresa's such a great storyteller and so eloquent and so we connected offline after, and I learned that she had been on the Orgasmic Birth podcast, sharing her birth stories, and I listened and I just was like, yes, I would love to invite you to share your birth stories.

So again, welcome. Please go ahead and introduce yourself a little more.

Theresa: Hi everyone. I am Theresa Lasbrey Peters. I am a birth and postpartum doula and lactation specialist. My company is called Nnenna Birth, n n e n n a birth, the name comes from Nnenna, which is my mother's native tongue from Nigeria. She was Igbo and Nne means your mother, Nna means your father.

So I put them together. And also it's the nickname that my grandmother used to call me when I was a baby. And so, Nnenna Birth is mother, father, and everything in between. I am located in the Bronx, married with two children, and those two children are the people that catapulted me into this birth work.

And I think all my information is in the resources. But, I'm on Instagram as at Nnenna Birth, n n e n n a birth and www.nnennabirth.com. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you.

Lisa: Yes, thank you so much.

Prenatal Journey

Lisa: So let's start off with, would you like to share anything about your first prenatal journey and what were the different ways that you prepared for birth and for becoming a parent?

Theresa: Okay. So, I became a mother, or started my prenatal journey, later than most, maybe not so late because of New York City. But later than on average. I got pregnant when I was 39, and I had my first child at 40, and then my second child, I had at 43. So, as a 39 year old, they still kindly call us advanced maternal age.

They used to call us geriatric pregnancy, but they decided to stop hurting our feelings in that way.

Lisa: Sometimes if you peek in your chart, I think sometimes they still write that somewhere.

Theresa: They find other ways to hurt our feelings. They just, you know, try not to say it in our faces-

Lisa: Oh geez,

Theresa: right away. They don't-

Lisa: Change these terms, please.

Theresa: Advanced maternal age. Which is really interesting, because for me, getting pregnant wasn't difficult. The pregnancy wasn't particularly difficult. But I just didn't love pregnancy, still don't, but the birth was, you know, there's an expectation of just all the things, and the birth experience was glorious. I love to give birth.

So, when I started out the journey, first of all, I wasn't telling anyone. We weren't telling anyone that we were pregnant, and we were going through this whole process of screening. So we were doing the chorionic villus sampling, so the CVS, right, to find out, because we were so ancient, what kind of baby we were making, and, like, just to make sure that there were no genetic issues.

And at first it was like, it was a little questionable. Like they weren't quite, sure it was inconclusive, they said. They weren't quite sure. So then we went to an amniocentesis. Which is really interesting because the point of the CVS is if there's something not working, then you know, then you get to choose whether or not you want to continue the pregnancy.

So do that about like 11 weeks. So imagine 11 weeks at least, for some people they can think about, the continuation or discontinuation. Then you have to wait for amniocentesis. And by then it was 20 weeks, and for me, 20 weeks, I started to feel my baby moving. So regardless of what the amniocentesis was going to, whatever the result was, you'd have to come and snatch my baby out of me like a bandit.

So thankfully the amniocentesis said baby was fine. And so we move right along. And we carried through this pregnancy, which was, the most difficult thing about it was getting bigger and getting heartburn. And then at some point, not being able to move my left leg right before I was about to give birth.

Like he was on a nerve. I could move it, but it was like just, it was time. As we all know at the end, it's, it was time.

Lisa: You're saying toward the end of pregnancy, not labor?

Theresa: Towards, yeah, toward the end of the pregnancy. People, you get fed up at the end. So the interesting thing is that, when it came to pregnancy timing, the due date is, I think it's one of your first interventions, right?

Like the due date isn't real. It's not, if you've never had a baby before and they don't know how long you will gestate for, you could be somebody that goes 37 weeks. You could be somebody that goes 42 weeks, which is kind of scary for a lot of medical practices. Or you could be somebody that goes at 33 weeks, like some people on average just have really short periods, some people just have longer. But on average between 37 and 42ish, .

So my due date was May 8th. The doctor said May 9th. My baby was born May 10th, so it wasn't so bad.

Lisa: Our kids share a birthday. My first born was May 10th.

Theresa: Oh wow.

Lisa: So fun. I love it cuz it's right around Mother's Day.

Theresa: Yeah. I really wanted, May 8th was Mother's Day, so I was like, let me get in, let me slide in and get a Mother's Day in. And my son was like, Nope, you have to wait a whole year. Mother's Day, a whole year, done.

So, that experience, one of my friends had just had a baby about five months before, had a great,chichi, Fifth Avenue OBGYN, really great, competent woman. I have this thing where I really like working with people who have had lots of births, but also who personally experienced it themselves or are close proximity somehow. So I tend to go with women OBs, right, who've had babies. But not everybody, I work with people who haven't and they're still great.

So, I feel like my OB respected me, and she was very kind, and she also looked at my burgeoning on 40 self and just, I could just see in her eyes, she was sharpening her scalpel.

Like, she was like, I'm gonna cut you. I could just see it, just the expectation. Like if you look at all the conditions or the preexisting conditions that lead to certain birth outcomes, sometimes the condition is your age and your race. And I was an old, older black woman, right? And I mean, it never really talks about what the correlating aspects are, like the things that really, it's not simply your age and it's not simply your race, but everything else that comes along with it. So like that was not the conversation, but I could feel the undertone.

I did the gestational diabetes test three times. And I hated it. and thankfully,I came in a little high, one of the tests, and the last three hour test, everything was fine.

So I went into labor on the eighth, no, on the ninth. I remember that day, just feeling kind of, just funny and telling my husband I could feel something funny. And then telling him he could go to work and he was like, are you crazy? Like, I'm not going to work. I'm okay.

Preparations for Birth

I remember also what I did in preparation for this birth. So I got a doula.

One of my good friends ran a community doula program at that time. So, she was able to recommend a really great doula for me, Tiombe Bowman, of Illuminating Doula, who's also my doula mentor. But, stay tuned for the next part. So Tiombe was my doula, and she is amazing. Been my doula for both my births actually.

And I, when faced with the unknown, I tend to just do a lot of research. So I researched every aspect of birth within an inch of existence. Just everything. Everything. And my template for research was my birth plan, right? Like my birth plan was what I used to guide me through each item, through each choice.

And one of my good friends had kindly given me a visual birth plan. So in my practice, I create a visual birth plan for all my clients, simply because I don't think people read your written birth plans, or they do, but they don't. A visual birth plan, they're these little tiles, they look at it, they know, they're like, don't do this, do this, informed consent. No students. I want to push. Don't coach me. Like all these things. So each tile had a birth choice, and I researched every choice within an inch of, like, until there was nothing left to research. So for my research, I learned a couple of things.

What to do to minimize tearing, right? To minimize or to ensure that you don't tear, which was a perineal massage, possibly with the first birth, giving birth on your side or on all fours.

The place that I loved more than anything was going to evidencebasedbirth.com. It is my Bible, as a doula.

Lisa: Ditto.

Theresa: And it was my salvation as an expecting parent. Cause they would tell you things like, what is the evidence for an induction for bigger babies, right? They'll tell you in your third trimester, we think you have a big one. We think you have a Thanksgiving Turkey in there, right? They won't say that, but it sure does sound like it. Like, we think you've got a real, real big one and I went to evidence-based birth and they'll say, they're only right about 54% of the time. And if you are a doula and you get to witness, you know what now has been like over a hundred births for me, you get to really see that they're not right, often. They'll be like, the baby's nine pounds and the baby comes out like seven pounds.

Lisa: Mm-hmm. And I feel like usually when they're saying the baby's big, they're often overestimating. Right? Is that, has that been your experience?

Theresa: Yeah. Overestimating. And I think that's just simply, I guess it's better to say the baby's big and be wrong than to say the baby is fine and, I don't know, because then that is their beginning of their interventions, right? Like, the baby is big, we've got to do something, gotta get 'em out, right?

Gotta get the baby out, because then they're gonna be too big. They're gonna be the size of the Empire State Building in your body or something. But it's that beginning of sort of panic, right? Which I did not buy into. And I don't know if they even said my son was going to be too big.

But I do remember, just doing the research and knowing that they're right 54% of the time, the best positions are on your side, or on hands and knees, not on your back. On your back is really convenient for the doctor, on your back is what we see on TV, and what we understand culturally. And it is the most, it's one of the positions that you will tear in, most of the time.

But on all fours and on your side, you control the push and you tend to not tear, and incidentally, I didn't tear for both of my births, so it worked.

Lisa: Amazing. That's so great.

Theresa: So, just like a birth choice, just researching as much as I could, what to eat, drinking red leaf raspberry tea, eating six dates a day to, I don't know, by what week, I think it was like by 32 or 34 weeks. I think it's 34 weeks. And did not love dates, but ate them so that you could keep your amniotic sac intact longest.

Cuz people, when you go into those rooms and they want to break your bag of waters, maybe you should say no because once they break it, it doesn't usually speed up the process as much as they would wish. I have a maternal fetal medicine associate, an OB, who does research at a prestigious college, and she says, at the most that it does when they break your bag of waters is it might speed it up by 45 minutes, but often it doesn't do anything.

Cause the premise is they break it, the head descends, the weight, but often what it does is, it's an intervention that, now you're on the infection protocol, right? You're on the infection clock with all the examinations. So all the things that I learned by researching choices and optimizing birth, and really sitting there, just trying to hack it like as the kids say now or as everyone in social media is like, how do we hack this thing?

So I looked at how I could hack birth, like how I could create the most optimal birth for me. And in doing so learned that I didn't want cervical exams after 30 something weeks, 32 weeks or something, like 36 weeks, because it would introduce bacteria from the opening of the vagina to closer to the cervix, and I didn't need it.

And cervical exams don't tell you anything. They don't really tell you anything.

Lisa: Yeah.

Theresa: Maybe when they're calculating your Bishop score for an induction and the likelihood of, the induction most likely being successful, you know, how dilated you are, how effaced you are, what station you're in, might be able to help them.

But you could be two centimeters dilated for like a week and not go into labor. You could be not dilated at all and go into labor within hours and be fully dilated within hours.

Lisa: Yep. Birth is not linear.

Theresa: It's not.

Lisa: All bodies are different.

Theresa: It's all the things. I had a client who happened to be a doula.

I had the privilege of being a doula to a doula, which you would think that a doula, I'm a doula, I don't need a doula, but you do. She was awesome. It was like the best experience. I actually just want to do doulas for like a week. Just doula births because it's always so wild and interesting.

She went to the hospital. She was one centimeter. She went home and she was feeling something and she was in active labor and when she got back to the hospital, like, I don't know, like an hour later, she was seven centimeters. Just one hour from nothing or one or nothing to seven centimeters. So you cannot predict it.

So, no cervical exams,just the different things like, delay the eye ointment. Delay everything, skin to skin, delayed cord clamping so that I could get maximum blood. Although I don't think we got as much. I was able with the second baby to make sure that it was a longer interval before they cut the umbilical cord.

With the first baby, it wasn't as much. And he had like, by the time he was six months, he was slightly anemic, whereas with my daughter she wasn't.

Strategic Choices

So, what else? So just all these birth choices, they were very important to me. I did not want Pitocin at all. I did not want an IV. I was able to have an agreement with my OB. We can have a Hep-Lock, which was a port inserted just in case, but no bag attached, right? I wanted free movement and I wasn't interested in all the IV fluids because the IV fluids artificially inflate the size of the baby, right? Like all that fluid that goes into you, where does it go? It goes into your baby.

So, you'll have a baby, they'll be seven pounds at birth, and then they'll like, pee it all out and now they're six pounds something. And then, everybody's screaming about how the baby lost so much weight and it's because,

Lisa: Must supplement immediately.

Theresa: Yeah. Like, and also you, when you have all the IV, you swell up and then it goes down.

So I really was committed to as little to no interventions as possible in my first birth. And why did I wanna do that? Like why all the natural things? Well, I couldn't give birth, by a stream, in a cave, like I would've wanted because my husband kept saying, I work for this insurance, you know, we're gonna use it. I'm like, okay, fine. I wasn't going to give birth at home because I was a first time mom and I just wasn't that courageous. I didn't know what I was doing. So it was going to be a hospital birth, but I wanted as little intervention as possible.

I knew instinctively or I knew from my research, I can't really put my finger on it, that the fewer interventions I had during the birthing process, the more successful, the easier it would be for me to breastfeed. And I had the great fortune of one of my best friends having a baby about a year before I had a baby, and she just told me all the things, right? She told me about the breastfeeding and that, they're not born hungry, they're not born starving, they're born with interstitial fluid inside of them from being in the amniotic sac. So they're not starving. It's instinct that makes them eat, but they're not starving. Their stomach is the size of a cherry. Like all this stuff. Like, could you just imagine just acquiring all this information, like, and processing it.

I don't think that now that I've had children, I could process information in that same way. The luxury of being childless.

Lisa: Totally.

Theresa: To be able to think and process and plan and hack. Now I'm just like, can we get from point A to point B without an accident.

Lisa: Like flying by the seat of your pants more.

Theresa: Yes. It's like, oh, can we get a nap in there? Can we get a sandwich? Did you eat real food today? Like all those things, right. Like all the distractions. Cuz I feel like, just so, so many distractions and inability to concentrate now that I have two children.

So I was just able to acquire all this information and I knew that if I wanted to optimize this breastfeeding, which I was gonna do no matter what, there was gonna be no formula, right? Like formula is poison. I'm part of the breastfeeding mafia. And they were like, whoever's in charge of it, whispered in my ear, if you give the baby formula, you're gonna get it.

Or maybe they didn't. I just knew that, if I didn't have to, because formula for me is emergency food, and it's necessary for people that choose to use it or need to use it, and I just knew that I wanted to ensure that there was no reason for my children to ever have formula.

Lisa: Just you made strategic choices.

Theresa: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And in order to do that, that means less fluid, less interventions, less things inside of me, because I didn't wanna give it to the baby. I didn't want it to prevent me from initiating breastfeeding, which is, without all the interventions, which is not the easiest thing.

It's natural, but it's not intuitive. It's something that you learn and the baby learns. So at least I wanted to give him the best chance. And it, in and of itself, it was still challenging, but without the other stuff, it was fine.

Hypnobabies and Home Study

Theresa: So the day of, I have these strange feelings. My husband decides to stay home. I had started, the Hypnobabies, like a childbirth education.

Lisa: Home study?

Theresa: Home study, I did home study. It's like hypnobirthing, but more radical. Again, whoever it was that I was answering to, all the natural birth, whatever they are, right, like the whole, the mob of them, the clique of them, I was very much bought in. And it's so interesting to me because people always talk about natural birth, I gave birth naturally, I wanted to give birth naturally. And I'm like, all birth is natural. Did your baby come out a vampire? Are they, did you have a supernatural birth? Is a C-section a supernatural birth? Is your child a werewolf now? No. All birth is natural. Belly births are natural.

Lisa: Yes. Right.

Theresa: A belly birth is a warrior birth, right? You had a baby and it's the ultimate sacrifice. The vaginal birth is easier, it's easier to recover from. A belly birth says, I wanna live and I want my baby to live, and we just had to do this and now we can move forward. And it's the ultimate sacrifice. You gave birth. But you know, like, let me go around telling people that a belly birth is natural. All birth is natural. Or as I would say, every birth is a victory.

That's one of the sayings of Nnenna Birth, every birth is a victory. The outcome of these births, there's a victory to be found in all of them. And, there are births that don't have the outcomes that you would hope for. And for me in my work, I look to see what the victory is, right?

Like for some births in my work, I learn more, I learn what to do next time so that if something didn't work this birth, I learned to acquire the information and let go, forgive myself, and definitely affirm my client and help them have peace and then take that information to the next person.

So I did Hypnobabies. I think I did it wrong. I kept falling asleep.

Lisa: That means you're very relaxed. So in my book, that sounds perfect.

Theresa: Yeah, sounds good. I was a really bad student of Hypnobabies. I think I missed a couple of days. I felt that I was the worst student, but we played those Hypnobabies tracks while I was going through my birthing time.

Cause we don't call it labor, it's your birthing time, cuz it's all about the re languaging of these very scary things. And I dunno if I was scared, I was just ready to be present and experience it because the preemptive sort of panic and fear, it's not necessary. You can be afraid when it's happening, like you don't have to be afraid before it, right?

Like, so I didn't get myself into a frenzy. I just knew that once I got there, I'd be able to handle it or not, right? Like I just, I would deal with whatever. I thought I was going to be okay, and in fact, I was, right? So Hypnobabies tracks are playing in the background. I'm eating, I'm walking around. I'm doing a lot of the things that no one really tells you what happens when you're about to have a baby.

You kind of find out right before and you're like, yuck. Right? So like, you lose your mucus plug, which is the cap of mucus on your cervix that keeps the baby in. And then, they don't tell you that this thing comes out and you're like, what is this? Why is this happening? So my mucus plug, so aka, my bloody show, like pink,like I kept using the bathroom. I kept having bowel movements all day long. It was like a purge, so it would be like toilet to shower, toilet to shower, toilet to shower. So for me, it wasn't painful, and I don't know if it was actually not painful and like I just have an easier time or if my mind sort of just adapted and said that it wasn't painful and therefore it wasn't.

Or, if Hypnobabies actually just worked for me. I think it was like a combination of all the things. I don't find it painful. I found it to be pressure. And I knew with every surge, with every pressure wave, that it was my body opening up. Like, they call it contractions, but you're not really, the uterus contracts, but it's also expanding.

So your cervix, uterus goes blah, and your cervix is opening up. So it's actually an expansion, but you know, it's not particularly cool to call it an expansion, your expansions, right? Cause that's too peaceful, and birth is scary, right? So the re languaging of everything really fit with the kind of person that I am.

First Labor

So I felt my body opening up. I was gonna meet my baby. I was gonna just, until I felt it was time. So, I'm hanging out, dealing with all this heartburn. I never take medicine, will not take Tylenol. I mean, I broke my hand, that's how I found out I was pregnant. That's a whole other story.

And I remember getting everything set with no, like, nothing to relax me, nothing. I actually initially set my hand at home on my own and it didn't feel good, I'll tell you that. Okay. Maybe now that I'm older, I would take all the medication. But that's another story, right?

Lisa: You're tough.

Theresa: No medication, nothing, no Tylenol, no nothing. And at the end of this pregnancy, this heartburn was like attacking me. And so I think my doctor told me to take something and I was like, fine, I'm gonna take, it was like Tums or whatever the next thing is of Tums, which I refused to take all pregnancy.

And I took it, I took one Tums and it really didn't do much, but I was like, it's time for this baby to get out of me cuz you are up to here. So hanging out, eating a little lightly, drinking coconut water. We have a little pallet in front of the bathroom, pillows just laying there, going to the living room, listening to my Hypnobabies.

It's been a really interesting day. No one in the house except for my husband and I. My mom who was in town, my mother-in-law who was around, they were both banished from the scene. They did not love that, but what were they gonna do? Right? Like, love you and don't need you here. And then so keeping in contact with the OB, keeping in contact with the doula.

At some point, something happened. I was at home with my husband all day, he has been with me, he's been living his best life, been snacking, he's been farting, Hypnobabies has been playing. Everything's been fine. And at some point I was like, in the bedroom with him laying down, and he farted again. And I was like, you and your farts can get outta here. The Hypnobabies track, the soothing, relaxing track is playing in the background. And I was like, turn that off. Turn off the track. Get outta here.

So I'm sure I had transitioned to active labor, because everything was super chill, everything was great, and then it wasn't. So like, it was intense. I took one more shower, and I was like, I can't, this baby has to come out, I feel the urge to push. So tell the doula to get ready, tell our OB, and we get in the car, I like plop myself in the back, and I just like, this urge to push, like it's time right now. And I told my husband, take the lights, take the lights, Take the lights. He gets on the highway, there's a huge traffic jam. Gets off the highway, runs the lights, we go from the Bronx where we live, to Lenox Hill, to Manhattan, on our way down Lexington, pick up our doula in Harlem. Go down. And I remember when we were on the phone, I was on the phone, in the car talking to the doula and I was like, she was like, why are you yelling? And I was like, dunno. And I really had no reason to. I was just like, and she was like, are you, like in pain? I was like, no. She was like, save your energy. And so I did.

So we get to the hospital, husband goes to park the car, and we walk towards the security. And the security is like, do you want a wheelchair? And my doula turned to him and said, she's not sick. And so then I walk up into triage and I tell them I have the urge to push. And they go, first time mom and I say yes, and they go, oh, they turn around going back to smoking their cigarettes. Like she's gonna be here for days. And so when I go in and they do the check, which I allow at that point, my plan was, you can check me when I feel the urge to push.

They were like, oh my gosh, she's right. Cause I was like, super calm. I have the urge to push. I'm not, like, no, and they start running into walls. I'm gonna date myself, I'm gonna age, date myself like Larry, Mo, and Curly, right? Like trying to get the gurney or whatever it is, the thing in, and they're like, oh, we gotta put the arm, like lost it, right?

We get into the room, trying to do this internal monitor and also this stuff. And I'm like, is everything ok? Is the baby ok? Everything? And by the way, like I have this, I had this sensitivity to sound, and when we were driving down, I told my husband to turn off the music and we're in this room and it's just everybody's in there.

And I'm like, turn that off. Turn off the tv. There's too many people in here. Everybody just has to get outta here. The joys of being a 40 year old first time mom is you're old and you're crabby. Right. But you're not really old. You're just not the same version of yourself as your 20 year old self.

Your 20 year old self wants to be really nice to everybody and accommodate everyone, which I still do to a certain extent, but this, in this particular situation, everybody had to get out. Right.

Lisa: Good. Good for you.

Too many of you, it's too loud, it's too noisy. Like I just need peace. Our boundaries do increase, right, as we age, and it's such a beautiful thing and an empowering thing.

Theresa: And it's hard fought and well earned, right? So like, get out, get out, get out. So I'm on all fours cuz you know, they want me to be wherever, and I'm on all fours. That pregnancy, I was younger, more agile, flipped myself over onto all fours, and then I'm like, I'm gonna throw up, right? And so I throw up on all fours you know, it comes out of my mouth, and my water breaks, so it's like a double-sided hose. Shh.

Lisa: That's hilarious.

Theresa: My husband said that everybody was like, and then they cleaned it up, and then my OB showed up and she was barely able to catch that baby.

I don't know who caught it, but she was in, she was around. But push, push. Maybe 2, 3 pushes, baby comes out. So between the time we got to the hospital until the baby was born, it was 26 minutes. And I had gone through the process of laboring for maybe 12 hours at home. Oh. My birthing time, not laboring, my birthing time, my whole process, at home was 12 hours and then had the baby 26 minutes after we got in there.

Lisa: I love that. Can I ask you, did you have conversations at all with your doula, or you just wanted to labor at home until you were pushing, or had you thought about like, strategically.

Theresa: The fiend for research that I was, I knew to labor at home as long as possible. Who wants to go into the hospital and fight all the interventions? Just hang out at home. As long as nothing feels sharp, disturbing, if your water hasn't broken, I mean, for some people they're like, I know some very warrior-like mothers and birthing people who, their water broke and they stayed home.

I was like, okay. But you know, I think if you have like group B strep, you might wanna go in to get your penicillin or whatever it is. Or maybe you don't like, these choices are yours and everything is malleable. You just have to, you have to do the sort of, cost benefit analysis, right?

Like, if I labor at home, might I have this baby in the house or in the car perhaps? And I was saying that to my husband, I was like, Ooh, I think it's time. And he was like, you're not having the baby in the house and you're not having the baby in the car because he worked too hard for this good insurance. Okay. So that's what he said. I worked too hard for this good insurance for you to have the baby in the car. I was like, you just got the car cleaned, it's fine. And he was like, no. So zippity zip to the hospital we went. But, so my doula, we spoke about things, she gave me advice, she gave me guidance.

She went over my visual birth plan with me, and she affirmed my choices. She gave me resources. My OB, and I really, I love and respect and appreciate my OB. She's a brilliant woman with a lot of experience. And she looked at my birth plan and I told her I was doing Hypnobabies, and she was like, oh, that's nice.

Like, oh, that's nice. They all say they're gonna do these things, they don't, but she didn't say and they don't, but as a doula, like the institution of birth is, it's like prison. They're just like, they all crumble.

Like, you're all gonna give in and get that epidural or it's gonna break you. They're not trying to break you, but it will break you eventually and then you'll need us. That was not the case with me. So after the baby came out and my OB was there, she was like, wow, you did everything you said.

And I was like, yeah, cuz I'm me. Because I'm like, that's what was going to happen.

Lisa: Really validating, right?

Breastfeeding Journey

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. So had the baby, no tears, latched immediately. And the birth journey was one thing, the breastfeeding journey was another. It wasn't challenging in as much as,that I didn't get it wrong, I didn't get it right. I just had to keep doing it, and I knew that I didn't need galactagogues, I didn't need milk thistle and all these other things cuz you don't just get that colostrum, which is the good milk, the true liquid gold, right? Like everything else after colostrum, transitional milk and on, that's like, that's a dime a dozen.

That colostrum lasts three days post placental detachment, like once you deliver the placenta, that's it. So, I had to get that into the baby as much as possible. So we're nursing, we're nursing, we're nursing, disrupted it because he had a circumcision, and that was daddy's choice, and he didn't like that.

And like that disrupted us for a little bit. And then boom, he got back on it and everything was great. And I don't even know if my son had a tongue tie. I don't know if anything wasn't so great about his breastfeeding. I just know like a maniac, like a, just a dedicated, intense, like obsessive human being, I kept putting him to that breast. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth in a corner, crying in the dark, hot and sweaty. Brain is going, the baby is starving. Just doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it. Because we're programmed to think that the baby's starving. Cuz if we're just like, yeah, I just had my first baby, he's fine. I just went in five hours ago. He's okay. No, he is not, the baby's not okay. Every two to three hours and sometimes every two minutes. Do it. Like people are like, oh, I, my milk didn't come in. You have milk. You've had it since you were like 15, 16 weeks pregnant. You have colostrum.

Colostrum is milk. Colostrum is the champagne of milks. Okay. Colostrum is yellow, literally yellow, it is the champagne. Okay, so

Lisa: I've never heard that and I love it.

Theresa: I've never said that. It's mine. Said

Lisa: That is a quotable.

Theresa: I said it.

Lisa: It's yours. I'll do proper attribution.

Theresa: It's been recorded. So like, colostrum is like, no joke.

Like you want that in, it's all the immunity. It's all the binding of iron. It's like all this beautiful stuff. So, got it in him. And I knew all this stuff before I became a birth worker, before I became a doula because I am an intensely focused person and I wanted to engineer the perfect birth.

Did I get the perfect birth? I engineered an optimal birth. Cuz once you have the baby, you understand perfection doesn't exist and it need not exist. You won't get there and you don't need it. You just need to keep the baby alive. Keep yourself alive. Keep your baby alive. Keep yourself alive.

Lisa: Yes.

Theresa: And sometimes, you get the milk in, sometimes you cry, right? But you just try again. Miss a feeding or something doesn't go quite the way you want it to go, you have a chance to do it again. Birth is very forgiving. If you have a very intervention-filled birth by choice or by circumstance, you can still breastfeed successfully.

If you choose not to breastfeed, you can raise a child successfully. Birth is forgiving, as long as you can find the victory, in any version of your experience, then you know, you did it, you made it, you did it. And people be like, oh, everything's fine, healthy mom, healthy child.

No, everything's fine knowing that you did what it took to get through the experience, whatever outcome, and there are different types of outcomes.

2nd Pregnancy

So, first baby down the pipe. I was good. Everything's great. I'm an expert now, right? I was not. Learned that I was pregnant really, because I, I'm part of, like I told you, I'm part of the, if you ever know, Star Trek, the breastfeeding Borg. Resistance is futile. Resistance to the nipple is futile. You must breastfeed, right? Like, I really believed it. Was really about it. And was nursing him and he was like, he was two, he just turned two.

He was like, almost two and a half, still nursing, because I was like, I'm gonna just nurse him forever. People were like, when you gonna stop breastfeeding? And I was like, when I die. Like, what do you mean? When I die. You just gonna, you're gonna breastfeed in public. Yes. Because I don't care about you, I care about my child. I'm gonna bring out my very substantial breast. I'm gonna feed him.

Lisa: Good for you.

Theresa: But not at two, as a baby. Like when they're 32 and you're trying to breastfeed them in public, it's just not a good idea. It's just very uncomfortable for everyone. But at a baby, at two when they're coming in and telling you about the composition of the milk and what did you eat?

Like, ooh, it's very tasty today, mom. It is kind of interesting to be nursing at that point. But, I was committed to nurse until two, two and a half, three. And one day, I was nursing my son and I wanted to throw him across the room, like it hurt. And I had a visceral reaction like, I hate this.

And I was like, what is going on? What is happening? And so it happened a couple more times, and I took a pregnancy test and I was pregnant. So that's how I found out I was pregnant because I had developed an aversion to breastfeeding. Like I really hated that. That was never there. It was something that I loved doing.

It was something that really worked for me, especially postpartum cuz it would fix my brain. Like I would nurse him, I'd know he was eating and I would be less anxious and less of the things. But now I was doing it and I hated it and it hurt and I was pregnant.

Lisa: Our bodies and our brains are so amazing. That's just fascinating.

Theresa: Mm-hmm. And there I went with the second baby. Now I'm older and fatter and more stressed, right? And the reason that I'm older, fatter, and more stressed is because of the first baby. Like trying to keep him alive, trying to make it, trying to do it right.

Just trying to do all the things. So I go through the pregnancy and take the gestational diabetes test, and it was on the higher side, and I'm ready to do the three hour test, but my doctor's like, I don't even wanna put that much sugar in you, we're just, for all intents and purposes, you have gestational diabetes.

And I was like, I don't have gestational diabetes. I reject this gestational diabetes. And then I came up with my lovely Excel spreadsheet of all my blood sugar readings throughout the day and what I ate. And I brought that in with me to my dietician because I was gonna argue that I do not have gestational diabetes and I refuse to accept this.

So I was really ready to argue my case. And while I was in that very meeting is when I found out that my mother had passed away. And it was like, put everything into perspective, Living like you have gestational diabetes is not going to destroy you. You eat a meal, you walk after, right?

Like it wasn't anything where they needed to give me medication. So I was like, you know what? Just these dietary changes and making sure that I'm more active. I am an older mom, like older than I was the first time I had a baby. And so advanced maternal age, right? Cuz I had my second at 43. Dealt with the mourning. It's very hard to mourn when you're pregnant. But it also is sort of, something to anchor you. It was for me. I was going through grief counseling and something to keep you more to the world, right? Like my children outside and inside of me kept me connected to the world because when I lost my mother, I was like, what's the point of this? Right? But I did it.

So, that baby, my daughter, she was due April 24th, which was one of my good friend's birthdays. And it was like, April, I'm an April baby, so I'm like, okay, cool, let's do this. April 24th comes and goes. And I'm walking around, I'm in my little tight dress, belly's showing and people walking around looking at me, like my friends are like, you don't look like you're going to have a baby anytime soon.

Like, there was nothing that said it's over. Cuz by close to due date with my son, there's a picture of me like at Ikea on a couch just done, right? My leg wouldn't move, but with my daughter, I was just like hopping around. I felt pretty good. And my doctor was like, okay, so if you don't have this baby by X date, we're gonna schedule the induction for May 8th.

Oh, and then the other thing with this baby, I forgot to mention it. So the other thing for this baby is that she really wanted to challenge me because the doctor was like, when we did the sonogram, there was a little obstruction, we think you have placenta previa. By the way, you live and die by your sonogram tech, your ultrasound technician, and how they tell you things. And my first, the one around this previa situation or previa was a terrible human, was not very kind, was not particularly nice. But my second ultrasound, we had a really great time. The next technician, which I specifically asked to not get that technician ever again.

Don't know why, she was awful, don't know why. And as a black woman, it's very hard to figure out, well, she's just an awful person in general. She's just generally awful and gets to keep her job or she's just generally awful and cold because I'm black. Don't know, don't care, just don't come near, like, don't come near me again. No need to second guess it. So the second one, we were like, out here trying to figure out the name of the baby. I always tell people I'm gonna name the baby like Genghis or Hannibal, like, some really like, a conqueror, just a real aggressive name.

My children are Brynn and Bryce, by the way. So like we were figuring out a name, so we went through the alphabet and did the name. She was so kind. She indulged my chatty nervousness. So that was a kind human being. Then I really appreciate her and redeemed the ultrasound folks at Lenox Hill.

Lisa: Can I ask you a quick question? So you said the due date was April 24th with your daughter, and you said that they did say you have gestational diabetes. But your provider was willing to let you go to 42 weeks?

Theresa: Doesn't matter if she was willing.

Lisa: That's amazing.

Theresa: My body.

Lisa: I was wondering if you had to like talk her into that.

Theresa: It's no convincing. It's my body. That's what happens when you're 43. You're just like my body, I don't care.

Lisa: Yeah. No, that's great.

Theresa: You want this billing, you want the money, but they don't want the litigation, which is what it is, right? Obstetrics is very litigious. And so, like, if there's a mistake, per se, and they are accountable for it, nobody's gonna be like, oh, something bad happened, we're okay. No, people will sue you, right? Like, they don't love it. They carry the highest insurances, but it's my body so I will take responsibility for my body.

So previa came and went, but the previa was gonna have me have a C-section, right? That was it. And my husband's always the OB's friend, so that's really tough. Cause the OB was like, you can't have any activity down there. And I'm like, Hey, that's fun. It's the joy of pregnancy. The greatest gift of pregnancy is actual pregnancy sex. That's another story. And my husband was like, no. And I was like, fine.

So we do the second ultrasound, it moves, whew, I'm cleared. I'm at, April 24th is the supposed due date, but we all know that the due date isn't the due date, right? Like, how did they calculate it? How's my baby growing? Who knows? For me, I could have comfortably gone for another week and a half before I would look at interventions. So my doctor said to me, she was like, I'm scheduling your induction for May 8th.

And I think May 8th was like two weeks after, like a good amount of time. And I was like, I want it to be May 13th cuz my son's birthday's May 10th and I don't wanna miss his birthday, and I don't wanna be in the hospital for his birthday. And she was like, hell no.

And I looked at her like, whatever. I looked at my husband, like whatever, I'll do what I like. Right. I'm just not gonna show up. Or maybe I would've, who knows? When you get to those last moments of these last calculations, like, am I being too much of a renegade, am I endangering myself or my baby?

The constellation of choices is just overwhelming. But she scheduled it for May 8th, and I emailed her and I said to her, I'm gonna go into labor April 30th anyway. I don't know why I said that. I was like, the process is gonna begin, I'm gonna go into my birthing time April 30th. And lo and behold, I went into my birthing time, April 30th. It began on April 30th. But what was so interesting about it beginning on April 30th, is it continued until May 2nd. So I was in prodromal labor, right? Like I was in labor. I was going through the experience, but nothing was happening.

Lisa: Do you know if your OB stripped your membranes?

Theresa: No, they didn't and I'm not down for that, either.

Lisa: Okay.

Theresa: I am an intervention purist. Like, no need, baby will come. The first baby came when he was coming and they could have miscalculated her date.

Cause apparently August is a really fun time for me. I think August is when we conceive. And so it was like, I counted how many, cuz I had the tracker, the period tracker, and I counted 40 weeks after. And so that's how I knew, I chose May 8th, and that's how I knew that it could be anytime in that first week in May for my daughter.

2nd Birth

And I was like, oh, April 30th is when this thing is gonna start. And lo and behold, like if I was a betting woman, I should have like, I don't know, gone to Vegas. Cause it started April 30th. It just continued until May 2nd. And I was just like frantically cleaning the house, doing laundry, all this stuff.

Just getting ready. Cuz something's about to happen, but not quite now. So Thursday morning I look at my husband and I'm like, it's time. It's time. We've got to go, right? So we're heading out to the hospital over the highway now we go over a bump and I was like, you know what?

This is so uncomfortable. So for me it's pressure, like pressure, urge to push. This wasn't even an urge to push, just pressure. Like just, ugh, too much pressure. And I was like, he went over that bump, I was like, you know what, a C-section is not a bad idea. It's fine. Get this baby out. But you know, like where you go, into another place. Obviously I wasn't scared of the natural birth clique that was gonna come and get me, they were gonna get me if I didn't have the baby vaginally.

Get to the hospital. They check me. I am eight centimeters, right? Not as precipitous as the first one. Get to the hospital. I'm eight centimeters. And I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be so quick. I'm gonna be fine. I get to the hospital and I'm in there for six hours, with the doula. My doctor's, I'm sure her soul was like, I get to control this. I get to really, like, I get to do the sonograms, I get to do all this stuff.

And I'm also like, I get to do the billing, right? So we're in there and my plan says a couple of things. It says, I would like a medical team, like a nurse who is conducive to someone,rejecting or eschewing pain medication. I'm not gonna get it. Like, I'm never gonna get it. Like there's something in me, why? That is the thing for me. For me, birth is like an Olympic sport. I would do it every day, all day. Being pregnant, not so much. And people were like, oh, you have this high pain tolerance. No, I had bowel movements in pregnancy that made me cry. And there are things that make me cry, like left and right all the time.

Like stubbing a toe, things that were more painful than giving birth to me. The first Brazilian wax after my first son, my first child. Okay. That was painful. Giving birth, it wasn't painful. People are like,you're really bonkers. And I'm like, perhaps. But that Brazilian wax, the sensitivity, and I think I did it like months later and it was just like never again.

So we're there, the six hours I'm moving back and forth. My doula and my OB are like, stop complaining, don't complain about these six hours, cuz other people are here longer. And I was like, this is the pits, this is for the birds. I said, you know, I expected to meet my daughter. Later on when I did my birth work, I really got to understand that, I think I was afraid of going from one to two. Like there was something inside of me that was afraid and it might have stalled the process cuz you know,I don't think I progressed much in those six hours.

Then the nurse suggested nipple stimulation. And I won't tell you the whole sordid tale of how my husband had to stimulate to get his child, but he did. And so the stimulation worked, I dilated, my OB goes in to adjust, this is why she's a dope OB, to adjust the baby's head cuz something was happening about the descending.

And I'm like, what are you doing? I hate being touched. I hate being touched while I'm giving birth. What are you doing? I'm like, oh, that's wonderful. And everything was with consent. So it wasn't that she was in there without my consent, she was in there with my permission, but I didn't like how it felt. And then it felt great. And I always throw up before I have the baby.

So I threw up again, push, push, the baby comes out and I look down at her and I'm like, what have we done? It's the Kraken. She was beautiful, but now there are two. And now I'm like questioning my life choices.

Now there are two and they let me have a baby the last time, they let me go home with this baby. And now, they let me have a second one, right? I am not an adult. Cuz even at 40, my husband was like 42 when we had our son, 40 and 42. We're like, our knowledge of childcare and babies was limited to the childbirth education class we took that our OB recommended and we were like teenagers.

Like I had no idea. And now I had the second one and I really had no idea.

So out she came, latched, this one was easier because I just knew. And she was beautiful and she was bigger and she wasn't obnoxiously large. The first one was six pounds, 1.5 ounces. The second one was seven pounds, 13 ounces.

So she was like a full pound bigger than her brother. No tearing. I was not on all fours because I was exhausted. And older and fatter. Right? Exhausted and older. And fatter And tired. Tired. Tired. Tired. So all I could manage, all I could muster was laying on my side and someone holding up my leg, which again, I do not like being touched when I'm pushing.

And so I had to accept that my husband was like holding up my leg. Push, push, push, no tearing. And out we go. We have this baby. And there you go. Off to breastfeed and do all the things. And I had this great doula, so Tiombe, who was with me the first time and with me the second time, and Tiombe Bowman, for anybody who knows her, she's one of the best.

She is the best. Like sitting there doing something, had the baby, next thing you know, there are sandwiches out of the blue. Like she knew to bring me food and I was eating. Years later she asked me, why'd you go into the hospital so early? And I was like I said, it was because it was time, right?

Because normally I'm a labor at home kind of person, right? It was time. My body said it was time, but my mind said to wait cuz it was scary, right? So I would love to have more children to see what I would do. But at 47 maybe it's time to just help other people. What else can it tell you?

So had the baby, breastfeeding was great. And the difference between the way that I gave birth without any interventions, and the way people who have interventions or like long inductions or you have a belly birth, you have a surgical intervention is, after I have the babies, I can do high kicks and back flips.

Like after my son, I was like, I feel great. Like I was very awake. The baby was awake. But after the interventions you have a little more recovery time, right? You're moving slowly. You're worried about your first poop, you're worried about these things. I will say that after my daughter, I wondered if something was going on down there and I had to go to the OB and she was like, yeah, it's just a usual explosion after a baby, but it's fine.

And it was, everything was fine. Just like you're a little sore, but it all goes back beautifully. Everything, all the inflammation goes down, just from, just this vigorous experience. And you just go back to yourself and everything's good. I remember this time around, I didn't get a Hep-Lock cuz I was really feeling like a renegade.

I was like, nah, I don't even want a Hep-Lock. Don't even put a port in here. Okay. Nothing. Nothing. She's like, well, if you have to have surgery, then you're gonna have to go into general anesthesia, which is dangerous for the baby and dangerous for you. And I said to her, well, I do wanna go under if you have to cut me because I don't wanna witness it.

It's fine. Just make sure that I wake up and I have a baby. Right? Don't have me wake up without my baby. That's a problem. And then I had an anesthesiologist invite himself into the room, like beg to come into the room. And he was having a conversation with me.

He was like, what is your plan? What is your plan? What is your plan? I was like, my plan is to have this baby, and if I need you, my plan is to let you with all your education, calculate based on my age and weight, how much anesthesia I might need for surgical intervention. But in the meantime, there's no need for you.

Right? What is my plan? Like, who are you? And also at 43, having just lost my mother, the only person I've ever been afraid of in life is my mom, right? And she was no longer here. So I'm not afraid of anyone, but I am afraid of bugs. Don't get me wrong. I'm afraid of things, just not people, right?

And so I was just like, no, like, I'm good. You study this, you'll do it. Like if I were in a car accident or something really, really precipitous, you'd be able to get my anesthesia together. And the other thing I also know is like I had an appendectomy when I was 14. And I remember the thing that happened to me, and it also happened to my brother, is that we both wake up in the middle of our procedures and anesthesia doesn't quite work the first time around.

Lisa: Oh geez.

Theresa: And so I knew that and I mentioned that to him too. So just keep that in mind and just keep it pushing and hopefully I won't need you cause I don't wanna see you again. And I don't know why you're in here, but maybe you needed the assurance so you got it. You can go. So, I had the baby the way I wanted.

Yay. And I love my OB. We like to visit her with the kids cuz those are her children. And, um,

Lisa: Nice.

Theresa: And I'm glad that she respected my space even if she didn't quite agree. Which is truly what a mutual respectful relationship is. Like, I don't agree with everything that OBs do, and I also understand that they do this all the time and they've seen a lot.

And once you see something really traumatic or an outcome that is just a bad outcome, I think you're scarred for life and you will always work to prevent it. So I understand what they're doing. I think everything's about making these educated choices, right? Making these informed decisions, so that you can have the kind of birth that you want, and just having the education or just having the person around you to provide you with the information.

I would say that, you don't have to retain all these things, right? I do. And why did I retain them? Because I intensely studied them the first time with the first child, studied them again, kind of sloppily with the second child, cuz you know I had another child and then decided to do birth work as a doula.

And so I have to do them with every birth that I do. Like in one of my wildest months, I think I had like seven births, and let me tell you,

Lisa: Whoa.

Theresa: Four of those births were back to back to back to back. Like four births, within five days. Mm-hmm. It was a lot. I mean, I try to slow it down, but, so I remember all these things. So like if you have a doula, if you have a resource, if you have a partner that can remember, let somebody else be the repository of all the information and only pay attention to what serves you at that time, but be able to pull on people to get that information.

So that's my story. That's how I had the babies. They're wonderful. They are now seven and four.

Lisa: Seven and four.

Theresa: They are both May babies, so May is a very difficult month for me. It's Mother's Day, it's my wedding anniversary, it's my two children's birthdays. It's just a wild, busy, my husband proposed in May, his late father was, his birthday's in May.

Anything, all the things happened in May, Memorial Day. So, don't call me in May. I just, and my very first birth was like the day before my anniversary. My very first birth as a doula. So May is really hot in the streets. oh,

Lisa: I would think you take May off. Do you take May off from doula work?

Theresa: No, you know, I didn't, I didn't. Did I have any babies? Yeah. And I had two babies in May. I don't know why, I mean, but they thankfully happened before the anniversary, so it just so happened, it worked out, the timing gods, just recently. Why did I become a doula?

Becoming a Doula

Lisa: You went right into what I was about to ask you.

Theresa: Okay.

Why did I become a doula? I was really grateful for the friend who ran the community doula program who strongly suggested a doula for me, who referred me to Tiombe. She was the one that said, Tiombe is it. I was very grateful for the process and during the pandemic, I was stuck in the house, I had taken a long hiatus for my work.

Prior to birth work, I was, and continue to be, a dating and relationship coach, a life coach, so, doing coaching work. And I had started to do birth coaching work cuz one of my dating and relationship coaching clients had successfully graduated from my work and was in the relationship of her life that she wanted, and then noticed that I had become a doula, or like I had become very well versed in birth work.

And this is before officially getting trained to be a doula. And so I was her birth coach for her birth, and it was like a complicated birth. So like, helped her with the second opinions and all the information and this and every week.

And so pandemic comes and I'm like, what am I gonna do with my life, right? Like, what am I gonna be when I grow up? I had started a pod for my then three, four year old son. And so I was at home and I was like, what can I do to make a difference in the world? Having heard about all the maternal outcomes, specifically not being so great for black and brown birthing people, black and brown women. And I had the opportunity to train with Northern Manhattan Perinatal Partnership, which is like a community health organization that serves, I guess, Harlem and Washington Heights. And I was able to do this virtual training with Debra Pascali-Bonaro to become a DONA doula.

And Debra is amazing, I love her. And she had trained my friend who had referred me to Tiombe of Illuminating Doula Services and had trained Tiombe. So, she trained me to be a postpartum doula cuz I knew that I didn't wanna do birth, I didn't wanna deal with the choices and the adrenaline and all the things, right.

I just wanted to just come in and take care of the person after they gave birth. Postpartum is like, the candy has come out of the wrapper and the baby's the candy and they want it, and then they discard you like the wrapper.

And I was like, I will not allow this to happen on my watch. Cuz postpartum is so important. It's so crucial. A lot of bad outcomes, a lot of really scary things happen in postpartum if you don't have the support, you know? We can mitigate postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression by having actual support that is actually affirming, that's actually related to what the birthing person wants.

Not so much like, not like pushing them to breastfeed if they don't want to, or pushing them not to breastfeed if they want to, like affirming their choices. You get more depression from people who wean before they want, or people who attempt to breastfeed if they don't want to.

So I'm here, like I was learning this stuff, wanting to support people because I did these no to low intervention births so that I could support breastfeeding. But why breastfeed? Right? Like why breastfeed the kids? Well, breastfeeding for me was a way to begin this path of breaking generational patterns, generational cycles of trauma, that I just found existent in various communities.

And I'm Nigerian, so not necessarily African-American experience, but just like being disconnected from just feeding the child with my body. Cuz there was a lot of formula advertising in Nigeria, right? So I'm sure I was combo fed and my mother was pushing to combo feed cuz more is better.

And I'm like, the baby's only gonna get my breast milk as much as possible until they don't want it. And so, I found that it was a connection. It fixed my brain. It gave my child what he needed. We were very close. We have a very close relationship. It's an affirming relationship and I wanted to engineer this perfect birth, but I also wanted to engineer this perfect child that was going to just grow up and reinvent space exploration or something, right? And what I learned was when he came out, he didn't really belong to me. I was just a steward. And so I got that I'm just here to provide everything that I can for him in terms of resilience and love and affirmation and he'll find his way. I'm just here to just be here for when he stumbles and skins his knee and he gives me a hug and then he goes right back, right?

So the children are, like Kahlil Gibran says, your children are not your own. I learned that up close and personal when we had our first child. So postpartum, for me, is a place where you can nurture the mother, the birthing person, and like, there is a name, in my mother's native tongue called Nneka, ne means mother from Nnenna Birth. Mother is Supreme, right?

Which really says to me, like, if the mother is happy, if the birthing parent, the person that delivered this baby, pushed this baby out, or just, brought this baby into this world is okay, then everybody is okay. Then at least the baby is okay. And so postpartum work for me was like, create peace, create space, create safety, create affirmation, help people resolve their birth experiences.

People have birth trauma, but you don't have to live in birth trauma. It doesn't have to stay with you. And just like anything else, you can resolve it or try to dissipate it and it'll come back. But each and every time, in my work as a postpartum doula, I work with people to dissipate it.

Like it comes up, you have the tools, you don't need me. So postpartum work was really great. I had a beautiful postpartum client as one of my first clients and really was in the postpartum work. And then somewhere along the lines, further into pandemic, I had an opportunity to train with another organization again with Debra Pascali-Bonaro, who, later on I had found out that she did this wonderful movie called Orgasmic Birth. And it was people who were like having these exhilarating birth experiences. It was ecstatic, it was beautiful. Some of them had orgasms. I'm like, what are you talking about?

An orgasm, like, all this stuff. So I had this opportunity to do birth training with her. And so I did it and I wasn't keen on doing birth cuz I was like, all these interventions and all this information and can we do it? And then I had this opportunity to do the Citywide Doula Initiative that mayor Eric Adams had started with Northern Manhattan Perinatal Partnership.

So I began my work as a community doula. So I had work as a private postpartum doula, community doula doing births, and also then branched out into doing private work doing births as well. So just like, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, right? Birth, birth, birth, birth, birth, birth, birth, but really, really fulfilling.

So when I did my first birth, I had a lot of trepidation, but when I did it, it was amazing. And I wanted it. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna see people in these intimate positions. I don't know if I can handle it. And now I'm like, when I see that intimate space, I'm always getting a gift.

Like it's always Christmas. Like if I'm seeing you in your most vulnerable, a baby's coming out, right? Like, I'm like, what? I'll do it every day, all day. So it's a great job. I love it.

An honor. And the training was not difficult for me because I had done all the research andI had taken lactation classes personally, and then I've done a lot of work around lactation.

Although the true nature of lactation is pretty much everybody who wants to can breastfeed, if they have the right support, and in their own way. It could be a combination, it could be with supplementation, it could be with some tools or augmentation. It could just be a drop or two.

But, with the proper support, you can have a really affirming experience. So that's why I do this work. That's why, and I love it.

Closing Remarks

Lisa: Love it.

Theresa, I thank you so much for investing the time and sharing your stories. I just adore your confidence and the way you communicate. I'm still holding onto the colostrum is champagne.

I gotta write it down. I'm gonna put it on a plaque and just like put it: colostrum is the champagne of milks. And the whole candy wrapper visual too. That metaphor is sadly, really true.

I heard that from an OB. Yeah, because she's just like, once the baby's out, like That's what it feels like for a lot of parents..

Theresa: Right? You know what I didn't mention was my further work with Debra Pascali-Bonaro. So I am also one of her first cohorts of Orgasmic Birth Practitioner. So, we learned a lot about how birth can be a really beautiful, pleasurable, empowering experience.

I wouldn't say that my births were pleasurable, but they were pretty exhilarating, right? Like they were it, I find them addictive. I would do them again and again. And since I can't personally do them, I help other people go through them. So the Orgasmic Birth Practitioner program is amazing.

We really learn about all the aspects of birth and the body and biology and brain chemistry and practices and just interventions and where they work and where they might not work. And I think the greatest thing I've learned from doing work with Debra is, and doulas say this all the time, right, the same way the baby was made is the same way the baby gets out, right? Like for people who had sexual intercourse to have the baby,or if you don't, right, oxytocin is formed by bonds and bonding and kissing and touching and someone rubbing your hair, right? So all these loving actions, massage, closeness,like if that happens during your birthing process or conventionally while you labor, you can have a beautiful experience, whatever the outcome is. But if you are in a space where you are loved on by your support person, you know someone that's loved in your life and your doula, I'm here to love on you as much as possible, as much as you want, or as little as you want, and provide you with all the information or as little information as you want.

Whatever you say goes. I find that when that oxytocin continuum, that spectrum of oxytocin before Pitocin shows up, really makes a great difference. And it helps after the baby comes out too, if you're able to latch and stimulate that oxytocin as well to shrink your uterus. But, I think, oxytocin rules the world.

That's it. Like what makes the world go round? Love, oxytocin, babies.

Lisa: Totally

Love. Oh, love it. What a great note to end on. Oxytocin rules the world. Thanks so much, Theresa.

Theresa: Thanks for having me. And I can't wait to watch more podcasts. Yeah, this birthing community that you've created. Thank you so much for having me.