Today’s season 3 premiere episode shares a birth story with birth class students and podcast listeners, Lucy & Cameron. They share how Lucy had hoped for a physiological birth and how surprised she was in coming to the U.S. from the UK that midwifery isn’t the default standard of care. As she goes through her pregnancy working with an OB, over time she realizes she’d prefer more patient-centered care so she switches from OB care to a hospital midwifery practice. Once she has something to compare to, she breathes a huge sigh of relief and feels like she’s found someone she can totally trust to hear and respect her birth choices and not intervene unnecessarily. When Lucy’s told she needs to go to the hospital immediately to be induced for low fluids at 41 weeks, it becomes clear things won’t fully go as she had hoped. However, you’ll hear Lucy share how it was still a positive, empowering experience overall because of her careful choice of a care provider with whom she felt truly aligned and who helped her discern each step of the way when interventions were truly medically indicated.
Resources:
Nettle Wellness - Jo Zasloff, midwife (switched to attending homebirths since this client’s birth; also the care provider in Episode 42)
Dr. Elizabeth Enschende, Mt Sinai Williamsburg family practice - pediatrician
ACOG’s official adjusted recommendation for no standard suctioning for meconium (reaffirmed 2021)
Episode 22 - Lisa describes foley balloon after the birth story
Oligohydramnios - definition and evidence on induction for low fluid (Lamaze / Evidence Based Birth)
Sponsor links:
East River Doula Collective (find a doula, attend our free “Meet the Doulas” event)
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (virtual or Astoria, Queens)
Episode Topics:
Finding out she was pregnant fairly late during Covid (because she had PCOS and had irregular periods)
Trying to find a care provider, feeling at a loss being from the UK, switching ultimately to a midwife
The importance of trusting your care provider
The value of other bodywork -- massage, exercise, pelvic floor therapy, etc.
Slow down on exercise at the end of pregnancy
Going in for a scan -- lack of fluid, IUGR (baby didn’t seem to have grown since 38 weeks) - doctor wants to induce right away. Midwife encourages her to go home, gather things, eat a good meal, and come back
Switching to backup doula around 39 weeks due to primary doula falling ill
Arriving at hospital, skipping triage, going straight to labor room at Mt. Sinai West
Getting hooked up to IV, limited in mobility, continuous monitoring
Lucy thinks she starts feeling contractions, midwife confirms they’re contractions (based on monitor)
Lots of shaking -- Jeanette does hand massage
12am-6am - keep buying time before going to medications
9am - 3cm at this point, Lucy’s encouraged
Using the TENS machine
Around noon - 4cm
Suggested rupturing the membranes, she buys time
4:30pm - 5cm
5pm - encouraged to rupture membranes at that point & see meconium
Fetal distress happening & Lucy’s blood pressure spiking
Gets epidural and this helps Lucy’s & baby’s heart rates to regulate
Within 30 minutes she’s 9 cm dilated
11:45pm - fully dilated, pushing
Taking a bit to feel how to push effectively
Jo prepping them for vacuum and a big energy shift in room
Bad reflux during pushing
She’s told they’re about to move to a cesarean and that motivates her to push hard enough to give birth
6 stitches (which she felt a lot)
Getting a private postpartum room, staying in
Saw pelvic floor PT Sonia Reiter before and after birth
Wishing they'd focused more on newborn care
Final tips
Interview Transcript
[00:00:00] Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. So good to see you Lucy. And hopefully at some point, Cam will come maybe in and out.
[00:00:07] Cameron: I'm back.
[00:00:09] Lisa: You're back. Yay. Hi, welcome. So glad to see you again, and I can't wait for you to share your birth story today. Why don't we get started by just introducing yourselves? Maybe tell us where you live and how long ago you gave birth, if you want to share anything else.
[00:00:26] Lucy: Yeah. Hi Lisa. I am seven weeks postpartum today. My name is Lucy and we gave birth at Mount Sinai West hospital. We did it with Jo at Nettle Wellness, who is a midwife. And I work in the film industry as a publicist. And I'm originally from the UK, as you can probably tell from the accent. And we moved to New York about four and a half years ago.
[00:00:51] Cameron: And I'm Cameron, thanks for having us Lisa on the podcast. We live in Brooklyn, as Lucy said, I work in music as a music agent. So both of us have sort of entertainment jobs, high energy stress, sort of all that kind of stuff.
[00:01:09] Lisa: Well, these are two of my students and I just loved having the two of you in my class, my virtual class, of course, during the pandemic. I really identified with both of you because you were great students, because you just really delved in to all the supplemental resources. And even before coming to class, it seemed like you'd done a lot of research and learning and exploration. And I just love that curious spirit. And I really identify with that because I felt very much that way when I was first pregnant, so it's been such a pleasure to get to know both of you.
[00:01:44] Lucy: I'm trying to remember actually why like how we found out about -- well, we found out about your birth class through the podcast, but I can't remember how we found out about the podcast. But obviously we listened to your podcast-- we love going upstate and hiking, so we'd always go upstate on the weekend and like listen to an episode, and we just felt so familiar with your voice, but the idea of not taking your birth class would've just been like ridiculous really. I just felt like we knew you and knew your students already. Their amazing, empowering stories. So, yeah, so it kind of felt like a natural part of our pregnancy journey.
[00:02:17] Lisa: Oh, that means so much to me because of course, you know, you create a podcast just hoping and praying somebody will listen but not knowing if anybody will. So it really means so much when I hear that people have listened to not just one episode, but multiple episodes.
[00:02:31] Lucy: Oh, all of them. I still listen to them now. And Cam's like, "you know, you've already given birth," and I'm like, "I know but they're still really interesting." And I still like finding comparisons and hearing about other people's experiences. So, yeah.
[00:02:44] Lisa: Well now it's your turn, yay! So can you start off by sharing a little bit with us about how your pregnancy went, ways you prepared for this transition into parenthood?
[00:02:55] Lucy: Yeah, so I found out I was pregnant quite late, actually. I have polycystic ovaries, so my cycle has always been pretty irregular.
And yeah, I've been to my annual gynecology appointment in June, and I said to her, I'm feeling a little bit off-- potentially pregnant. But like, COVID just started or that kind of thing. I was like, "Maybe I'm just stressed, maybe that's why my periods late," like all those kinds of reasons. Anyway, did she did a pregnancy test and it was negative. Actually turns out it was a false negative because then a month later I did another pregnancy test and it was positive. So--
[00:03:26] Lisa: You always hear how accurate they are. That's interesting.
[00:03:29] Lucy: So I don't know whether it was just too early, like I don't know. Anyway, so I found out on July third we were going away on that was a Friday. And then on the Monday we were going away for two weeks, so I didn't have a doctor's appointment for another two weeks. And then by the time I actually had a dating scan, cause obviously with my polycystic ovaries, it was pretty hard to like, know when I probably conceived. I was actually nine and a half weeks pregnant, which came as quite a shock to me, I was expecting to go into that and then be like, "Yeah, I'm like five weeks pregnant. And I was like, oh my gosh, how has that happened. So I knew that I was probably further along than I thought, but not that much further along.
So yeah, then I kind of had no idea where to start, like coming from the UK, I just kind of expected that I'd be given a couple of hospital options and I would just go to one and then I'd have a midwife and that would be it. And I soon very quickly realized that that is not the case in the U.S. and you're kind of expected to go about and find your care provider through almost like an interview process, which just seemed like really alien to me, and like very much like an unnatural path. So it was given some suggestions, by our OB and-- sorry, she wasn't an OB but my gynecologist who wasn't an OB and ended up at a very kind of normal OBGYN clinic in downtown Manhattan. Went there for my first appointment and it was fine. It just didn't necessarily feel like the right fit for us. So then we started speaking to other people, exploring our options, just speaking to as many people like that we knew had given birth and spoke to a friend of a friend that had delivered at another practice uptown. That delivered at the new Alexandra Cohen facility which is very glitzy and glamorous and looks lovely.
[00:05:07] Lisa: Yeah, everyone seems to be flocking there.
[00:05:09] Lucy: Yeah. It seems so. I mean you go in and it's state of the art, you know, it's very shiny and everything's new and I stupidly thought that it was great that they put when they did my scans that the doppler was warm, I was like, "Oh, that's clever." I didn't realize it was actually like that at every single hospital you go to. They kind of sewed it into me, it's like, yeah, it's really great, it's really, it's really warm. And I was like, oh wow and it's, yeah, that's nothing special it happens everywhere. Anyway, we had a few appointments there and as time went on and we began educating ourselves and reading and speaking to other people, I began to realize that we didn't really want to deliver with the care provider that we had chosen at that point.
[00:05:48] Cameron: I also think that just coming from the UK, you had this midwife approach, just, you were set in stone on having that be the way that we went. And I think when we were at Alexandra Cohen there's always something missing and it was that midwife approach to everything. I think that was, I think you felt that.
[00:06:08] Lucy: Yeah, everything felt very medical and one of my closest friends had lost her baby at full term, and I, for that reason always knew that I wanted to have like medical advice around me, but I probably didn't want to have it in the way that it was going to happen if I delivered at Alexandra Cohen or somewhere similar to that. I wanted to have a bit more flexibility. I wanted someone to listen to what I wanted. I also wanted to know the person that's going to deliver my baby, and it seemed, became apparent that it was going to be kind of one of eight options of people that were going to deliver my baby.
[00:06:39] Lisa: Huge practices.
[00:06:40] Lucy: Yeah and so obviously when I presented my birth plan to them, they were like, we'll put it in the system. Yeah. I just felt like there was no one was really following it. I was like, who's going to look at a computer system when you were in the middle of labor. Nobody. So yeah, it was suddenly quite clear to us that that was not the right way forward for us.
And I signed up relatively early on in my pregnancy to Love Child Yoga who I found invaluable actually. And the founder there was really helpful at kind of steering us in the right direction of, of questions to ask as well as obviously like during your course when we were later into our pregnancy.
So yeah, I think, cause we just became armed with more information we knew, what we did and didn't want from our birth experience really didn't we? So, yeah, so then we transfer at 27 weeks or 28 weeks, something like that.
But we were recommended to reach out to Jo at Nettle Wellness. And I kind of did it thinking there's absolutely no way she's going to be able to fit me in at this stage, like so late into my pregnancy at this point I had already contacted, I'd started doing some research and I kind of hadn't reached out to Jo 'cause I just thought she's never going to be able to fit me in. Anyway, I did, and amazingly got an email back saying, " Kind of a fluke but I actually do have a spot and Jo only takes I think it's three patients a month. So it was like, it was meant to be that she could fit us in. I mean, a good example is that I think if you told Jo at four weeks that you were pregnant, it would be unlikely she'd be able to fit you in. So the fact that she managed to fit me in at like 27 to 28 weeks or whatever it was, was a miracle.
[00:08:07] Cameron: It was meant to be.
[00:08:08] Lucy: It was meant to be.
[00:08:09] Lisa: So nice when that happens, and didn't you go to Central Park Midwifery where she used to work first and I think they were booked up.
[00:08:15] Lucy: We'd spoken to them yeah they as well. Before I reached out to Jo we spoke to Village Maternity I'd looked at the Metropolitan midwife unit. Yeah, I think I've been to almost every hospital in New York and just nothing felt right. Like nothing was offering me that midwife experience in a hospital that I wanted and it's just crazy cause that's what in the UK, that's just like standard what you have.
[00:08:38] Lisa: Standard of care. Yeah. Many of us wish it would become the case here.
[00:08:42] Lucy: It's just mad that you have to, most likely, unless you go to Metropolitan, or to Park Slope you have to go out of network for that. And a lot of people don't even know that that could be an option if they wanted it to be. Yeah. We feel very incredibly fortunate that we found Jo and that she was available and that we were able to transfer to her so late in our pregnancy story. Because I think our birth experience and labor would have been a very different outcome if we hadn't have had her. I do feel like we would've ended up with C-section or at least have been given birth at something like 37 or 38 weeks. But instead we delivered in the way that we had hoped with a few ups and downs along the way as well. But knowing that we were being listened to, and that our care provider had our best interest at heart and knew all of our preferences and gave us time and all the flexibility that we needed along the way.
[00:09:28] Cameron: I think it's, I think it's trust, too. I think you want to find that person that you just trust, you know, whatever happens during the journey during labor, you just know that that person is on your side and just has the same vision has the same, you know, you're aligned and you just know that you're in good hands. I think that was super important for us and for Lucy just to, to feel comfortable and find that right person and Jo for us checked all the boxes.
[00:10:01] Lucy: Yeah. We'd had some scans as well earlier on before we kind of transferred to Jo that had suggested there was some problems with our baby's kidney which at the time nothing could be done until he was born. There was also some indications that his stomach was measuring it a little bit smaller, but things that like weren't really alarming to us and didn't concern us but were presented to us in quite an alarmist way to the point where one scan we went into and they started throwing terms around like still birth and terms that you shouldn't mess with absolutely. And like, no one wants to hear that kind of terminology used and it was what should have been terrifying, it wasn't, instead it just made me very angry because of having taken your classes and because of having read the books that we'd read, and I knew that this was kind of standard in a lot of hospitals where they make you worry and get kind of--
[00:10:44] Lisa: Pathologize.
[00:10:45] Lucy: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I came out thinking, thank goodness. This was just when we knew we were about to transfer to Jo and I was so relieved that I wasn't going there because I think I would have moved back to the UK. So yeah, it just really made me angry that so many other women would have to go through that experience of going into a hospital and being delivered that kind of information, but not knowing that, you know, of course there's a time when it is appropriate, but knowing that in our case, it really wasn't and how many other women have had that information delivered to them that it didn't need to be so yeah.
[00:11:20] Lisa: And I remember, I'm pretty sure that you switched to Jo sometime during our class time together right? Was it or was it right before?
[00:11:28] Lucy: I think it was maybe even just after. Oh no it was during I think. Yeah, like the last week or two, but we transferred just before Christmas. We didn't have our first appointment with her until January until the first week of January. Just cause I just had a scan I think at the practice that we were using through Alexandra Cohen and it was like, we had a chat on the phone. So yeah, I had a first appointment with her in January.
[00:11:50] Lisa: Well I was just remembering that we had been in communication and just remembering what a huge load off, what a huge relief you felt and how beautifully aligned you felt suddenly by finding Jo. And Cam, like you were saying, finding someone that you could just trust and just breathe, just know that you have so far fewer hurdles to try to have the kind of birth that you hoped for.
[00:12:19] Lucy: Exactly.
[00:12:20] Lisa: That just delighted my heart, because many people don't realize until it's too late or they think it's too late or they don't really necessarily have the wherewithal. It feels too stressful for them to try to do all that homework--which I understand that--to switch care providers, but then, you know, then that's really a gamble if you stick with someone you don't feel well aligned with. So I'm so glad that you found a wonderful care provider.
[00:12:44] Lucy: We joined the Jazz Birthing Center quite early on in our pregnancy, which at the time we didn't think it was right for us, but I remember there was a woman on there that was switching at like 34 weeks. And I kept having her in the back of my head. I think when we were transferring, I was like, well, I'm not at 34 weeks yet, so I'm never too late. Like I knew she could do it at 34. I was like, I think probably like 30, 32, by the time we get to transferred. And I was like, well, at least I've still got an extra few weeks just in case.
Yes. During the times of COVID they had made an exception for the birthing center to be allowed to take later transfers.
Yeah, I guess that's a big takeaway for me and for anyone else, like, it's really, I mean, it is too late at a certain point, but really don't question it I think people even like when they're at like 16, 17 weeks, like, am I too late to switch over? It's like, no, not when we switched as late as we did.
[00:13:28] Lisa: 28 weeks is the mark where the options significantly diminish. But like you're saying, it's not impossible later.
[00:13:36] Lucy: Yeah. And then I think we just, you know, once we had Jo also had, I'd found somebody that I loved for massage at that point, which is something that like, I'm so grateful that I had an amazing person because I was still, I still got my exercise right up until the day I gave birth, actually or the day I went into labor. So kind of having that extra relief I guess, was really good. And I found a really good acupuncturist and made sure I set up pelvic floor specialists. Like, I mean, I was fortunate that I was able to kind of get that support, but feeling like I had surrounded myself by a network of people that could help give us the best birth experience possible felt really empowering, I guess.
And yeah, just feeling like I was doing as much as possible to help our labor and help our delivery. And reading, and like I kept a daily journal and things like that as well, which I think really helped me to think about how we were going to get through the next few days, weeks, months, and then finally the postpartum period, I guess.
So yeah, but the biggest takeaway, I think, as well was listen to your podcast, because that really does arm you with so much information and questions and other things.
[00:14:41] Lisa: Any other things, ways that you prepared? I know that was a lot.
[00:14:44] Lucy: How else did we...I mean, a lot of exercising. I think that was a big thing for me was just keeping my mental health strong throughout it all through exercise. Although I will say I was given it some advice to cut down on my exercise in the last few weeks of my pregnancy, which I didn't do. And on reflection, I should have done. So I think it would have been an easier labor.
[00:15:04] Lisa: In terms of pelvic floor health or what?
[00:15:05] Lucy: Yeah I just think being on that Peloton, like, the day I went into labor, probably didn't help my pelvic floor, like relax and open in the way it should've done. And people had given me that advice and I decided to ignore it and that was advice I shouldn't have ignored. So yeah. Going forward, I would probably listen to, if someone's telling you to take a step back, take a step back.
[00:15:26] Cameron: I think we were snowshoeing at 37 weeks upstate New York somewhere, so the activity didn't really slow down up until--
[00:15:32] Lucy: Yeah. There were times when we probably shouldn't have been two and a half hours away from our midwife, but anyway, luckily I didn't go into labor in the middle of a mountain. Yeah.
[00:15:42] Lisa: Cam it was a little hard to hear you. I think you said you went snowshoeing in Vermont.
[00:15:46] Cameron: We were snowshoeing upstate New York. It was, it was 37 weeks. So she was full term. And you know, it was, it was nothing too strenuous obviously, but I think just being that distance away from the city in case anything did happen. You know, having had us both, just a little bit kind of in the back of our head, but in the end it was [fine].
[00:16:05] Lucy: It was when we were up there and we were going away for two nights and I was suddenly like, "Oh, I don't think this was a good idea in the middle of the night and said, "What if I go into labor now Cam?" And there was a huge snow storm coming in that night. And I was thinking we are like three and a half hour drive away from the city. And I was like, "This is too much like we need to leave the next morning."
[00:16:24] Lisa: Just trying to get that last little babymoon in.
[00:16:26] Lucy: That's it. We're trying to make the most of it.
[00:16:29] Lisa: Well, so is this a good time to go ahead and go on into your birth story unless you have anything else?
[00:16:33] Lucy: I always thought that I would go into labor early and I was very wrong. We got to 41 weeks and obviously you have a scan at 41 weeks. Jo had kind of prepared us that often things present themselves in that scan and to make sure that I was as hydrated as possible you know, taken in as much fluid as possible to give us the best opportunity to show actually what was happening rather than it being me being dehydrated and presenting lack of fluid because of that reason.
So I was quite nervous I think when I went into that scan, just because I really didn't at 41 weeks, I was obviously getting a bit anxious about induction. And that was something I really wanted to avoid as much as possible. So, yeah, that was on Tuesday, March 2nd. So we went into that Cam obviously couldn't come due to COVID policies.
So he was sitting outside in the car and I was FaceTiming him, which was now standard for all of our appointments. This was at Mount Sinai West and the nurses there, and everyone there was fantastic. The woman doing this scan was talking me through everything. And she got to, at one point she went a little bit quiet and I said that's not a good sign. I said, "Oh, what are you looking at now?" She's like, "Just looking at the fluid." And I was like, "Oh, how's it looking?" "Yeah, pretty low; I'm just going to go get the doctor. And at this point, I just been kind of catching up with some email admin and that suddenly went out of window. That was me sitting there thinking, "Oh God, I didn't pack my bag and I probably should have done."
So then the doctor came in and he, at this point, Jo, my midwife is calling us, so I realized that obviously he'd been in touch with her and there was probably something going on. So I picked up and she said, "Oh, the doctors just in, so call me back as soon as you've spoken to him." So anyway, cutting a long story short, it presented that I would need to go in to be induced that day. I mean the doctor wants me to go straight over to triage there and then.
[00:18:16] Lisa: Which they always do.
[00:18:18] Lucy: I was totally freaked out about, so somebody who doesn't really cry much, I instantly started sobbing kind of quite uncontrollably because I just, it was just she's just to sit here, like instantly that I was going to have to be induced just was totally, I was like, "Well, this is everything I've ever envisioned has just, just totally gone out the window already."
[00:18:38] Lisa: I know you said this was past your due date. Did you say it was, it was around 41 weeks, right?
[00:18:41] Lucy: Forty one weeks yes. And essentially, I mean, I still to this day, can't really remember what they told me, but I think lack of fluid, the baby hadn't really shown much growth since the scan I'd had at 37 weeks. Suggesting that the baby, that the placenta wasn't really doing its job anymore and the baby just needed to come out ASAP. I mean, instantly in my head, I'm thinking of all the times I've listened to other people's birth stories. Like, well, why didn't this happen? And why didn't that? Then in the moment, I was like, that's when I was so glad we had Jo because I knew that if she didn't think anything needed to happen, she would have told me. And she said, "The baby needs to be born. And so I knew that the baby needed to be born. But I went out the hospital Cam was in the car went and sat with him and spoke to Jo and she was like, you know, "Go home, have a shower, have some dinner, and then we'll arrange to meet back at the hospital, like later that evening." And we had our scan at about three o'clock. And I think we said we'll meet back around eight o'clock. Yeah. So I went home in tears and then calmed down a little bit and kind of just got my head around the fact that the baby was coming then and there, whether we liked it or not. And we kind of treated that time at home as though we were in early labor, obviously, without any contractions.
[00:19:54] Lisa: I was just thinking that, cause I know when you sent me your written birth story, you said something about, well, there goes early labor at home, but I was thinking, well, she sent you home for your tiny bit of early labor.
[00:20:04] Lucy: And then I really, really kind of leant into that, like we had dinner, you know, thinking probably wouldn't get a good meal for a long while after the next couple of days, at least. Had dinner. I think we even went to Whole Foods to like pick up some thing. Had a shower, like had a little rest.
[00:20:18] Cameron: Went for a walk around the neighborhood.
[00:20:19] Lucy: Oh we did go for a walk around the neighborhood, like fed our cat, you know, all the things get on the bouncy ball obviously there wasn't really a need for that, but yeah, I did as much as we could. And then yeah, I guess just got our bags together and met Jo and our doula. So our doula was a last minute change as well. Our doula that we'd taken on very early in our pregnancy, actually it was one of the first things we decided, we took her on at about 15 weeks, I guess, something, she actually ended up falling sick a couple of weeks before our pregnancy. So we ended up using her backup doula, who was a lady called Jeanette, who was amazing and fantastic, and considering it was such a late transition, it felt seamless. So, yes, so she met us at the hospital and we went straight up. It was empty. Deserted. We skipped triage and went straight to--
[00:21:06] Cameron: We were direct transfer so they wouldn't need to do all the triage stuff and went right into our labor room.
[00:21:12] Lucy: And Cam was really good, like got the candles things that I thought we won't have time to use them or be that classic like we didn't have time to get up. We did have time to get it up. So there was me being like, " Don't buy the tea lights we'll never use them." Thank God we got the tea lights. So Cam like set all the tea lights up and like put the playlist on, and we tried to like, make it feel a little bit more relaxing than the environment that it actually is.
[00:21:33] Cameron: It was a page out of your book, Lisa. It was all the things that you had said, you know, get the tea lights, get the playlist, get the Bluetooth speaker, you know, turn the overhead, fluorescent lights off. Let's get those off.
It just, it did it set the tone, right? It put everyone in a relaxed --most importantly Lucy, it just made her relax. Because we wanted to go in to labor natural obviously so, we were there not really wanting to be there. So it just took a bit of the edge off and just made everything a bit, a bit nicer.
[00:22:05] Lucy: Yeah. So I mean, within moments of being there, Jo had checked to see what kind of situation I was in. And I'd seen her the day before, just for general checkup and I hadn't been at all dilated and I didn't expect to be any more and I wasn't.
So they put me on an IV straight away put me on all the machines. So instantly like all the ideas of laboring in a bath or being on a ball like all those kinds. I mean, I could be on the ball to a degree, but yeah, I was totally hooked up to constant monitoring. So all those things I'd had planned were out of the window again. And yeah, so they kind of gave the IV a bit of time to get into my system, I guess and us to kind of just relax in the room and do some of the, I can't remember what you were doing in the room.
[00:22:48] Cameron: I think we were just getting ready. I think we were just, just settling down. I think she gave us the time to settle and just talk and just, you know, all that kind of stuff.
[00:22:57] Lucy: Yeah. And so it was during that time that I didn't really voice it immediately, but I was trying to feel like what I thought were contractions, but I hadn't really ever had a contraction in my life, obviously, so didn't know what a contraction necessarily felt like. Anyway, so after about, I dunno, 10, 15 minutes or so I was like said to Cam and to Jeanette, this sounds crazy but I think I might be having some contractions. Anyway, as if on cue, Jo comes in, she's like, "I don't supposed you're feeling some type of contractions." I was like funny you should mention that.
[00:23:32] Lisa: That's so cool.
[00:23:33] Cameron: But also prior to that, they had wanted to induce her obviously, and I think Cytotec was mentioned on being used, being used first. We bought more time and then I think Pitocin was also suggested as the alternative and we just kept buying time. We wanted to try to see if we could, if this was gonna happen naturally also wanted to talk through the options and you know, whether one of those was better than the other and what the alternatives were, and just kept buying time and just talking it through, and that's when yeah, she just went into labor naturally.
[00:24:11] Lucy: But obviously at that point it was still very mild contractions and it was the thinking was still like, we still need to give you Pitocin and like speed things up here to which I was like, is there any chance we can have a little bit of time just to see if things naturally progress and this is when you know, even more grateful for Jo I'm sure if I'd have had the OB GYN that I had initially been with that had been like, no, we need to get this baby out, but instead Jo was like, "Okay, we'll give you some more time." And that is why she's getting all the pressure from the internal team at Mount Sinai West, who are saying to her, " This woman's here to give birth. Why isn't she just giving birth? Like, why isn't she just following the procedures?" So yeah, so that went on and obviously, like we knew that the more natural option would have been a Foley balloon, but given that I wasn't dilated, like that was obviously not looking like an option. But obviously Jo could see that I was getting more and more upset about the thought that I was going to be induced. And I guess got speaking to the team. Anyway, it turns out that they had recently, one of the resident nurses said she'd recently inserted a Foley balloon into an undilated women and had some success with it.
Obviously sounded like a pretty painful procedure, but I was like, sign me up, like honest. And it wasn't I'm anti induction or anything like that. I just, I'm not something that likes taking anything. I hate the idea of putting something like hate taking a pain killer. Like I'm just really weird about it. So the idea of putting something into me, I was like, I'd rather go through like excruciating pain then have them take anything. Like, that seemed like the less fearful option for me. And that's just like who I am as a person.
So they put the foley in. And that was about quarter to 12, I think they put the Foley in at night. At a quarter to midnight, and
[00:25:52] Lisa: And I think if from the notes you sent me, you were about two centimeters dilated when they did that. Yeah. Usually if you're at least like that dilated, they can put it in and it's actually going to fall out around four centimeters anyway. It's just for that little bit of dilation help.
[00:26:08] Lucy: Yeah. And then that's when I also started getting and I think I mentioned this to you as well, the really bad shakes and the teeth chattering, which I had forgotten about until I remembered that relatively recently, which was really quite overwhelming.
Like I just could not stop shaking. And obviously there was nothing, I don't know. I guess it's the hormones or whatever, but the teeth chattering was just like overwhelming.
[00:26:27] Lisa: And was there anything that you did or your doula suggested or anything that helped with that?
[00:26:33] Lucy: Yeah, she, and this is when it was obviously overnight, so Cam had lay down to try and get some rest and she came and did some Reiki on me. And do some like hand massage and it worked really well. At the time I was like, what have you just done to me? Cause it's just, it stopped pretty instantly actually.
[00:26:50] Lisa: So cool.
[00:26:51] Lucy: Yeah. And every time I start getting it, she'd come and do that and it would calm me down. I don't know whether it would just make my brain think different. I don't know. Anyway, it worked. So I guess the idea was over those four hours from sort of 12, till four, we'd get some rest. I didn't really rest. So just kind of going with the contractions, which were gradually getting stronger and Cam was having a little nap.
[00:27:12] Lisa: And I'm not sure if you said you arrived at the hospital about 8:30 PM.
[00:27:16] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:27:16] Cameron: It was 8:30.
[00:27:18] Lisa: So you're saying this is 12:00 AM to 4:00 AM.
[00:27:20] Lucy: Yes, exactly. So I think, and I think I remember from your, from the birth class that you'd said at around six hours, it starts to work, the Foley was that right? I think it was around six hours.
[00:27:36] Lisa: Oh there's a huge range in terms of--
[00:27:38] Lucy: But in my head, I decided six hours was what I needed to give this to
[00:27:41] Lisa: Oh interesting.
[00:27:42] Lucy: So I think around 4:00 AM it hadn't worked, and I was like, can we have a bit more time? Like, please, can we just see if it will work? So we waited and Jo agreed and was like, okay, like, we'll give it a couple more hours. We gave it a few more hours and by 6:00 AM I'd dilated a little bit more. I can't remember how much, but like a small amount, more, but not really enough to like, make a difference.
So again, I was like, Oh, but I still have made some progress. So that's a good sign. So can we have a little bit more time? And God bless Jo she was like, yes okay I'll, I'll give you a little bit more time. So then I think about 9:00 AM, she came and checked me again, and by this point I think I was about three centimeters dilated.
And so it was like, which I was having a celebration about. Cause I said, this means I'm progressing. This is great. Like, this is a good sign.
[00:28:28] Lisa: You never know how someone's going to respond.
[00:28:31] Lucy: In which Jo was like, yes, it is a good sign, like you have progress. Like I think we can stop thinking about an induction at this point and just see how you, how you move along. So I think they took the Foley out of there then didn't, they. Or did they take the Foley out earlier than that?
[00:28:47] Cameron: I think it was earlier than that and I think we said can we have more time. But then Pitocin was obviously still on the agenda just because yes, she was making progress, but not at the rate they wanted it to be. And you know, then the goal to go for them was to get the baby out. And that's why we were there in the first place, because --
[00:29:06] Lucy: The baby needed to be born.
[00:29:08] Cameron: It was what the scan showed. So I mean, there's no telling about if it's going to take an hour, if it's going to take 24 hours, so in their mind and Jo's mind and the staff, it was, let's just get this baby out and let's progress, you know, and one way to do that is administer Pitocin and that's going to get things speeding up.
And it got to the point of us asking for more time, ran out, they had put the order in for Pitocin. And I think I went out and got coffee or something and me and the doula sort of took turns going and get coffee and came back and Jo checked you again. And at that point, I think your contractions were a lot stronger and you progressed to four or five or -- it was four or something. And I think, I think she could just see the contractions, the rate, the frequency, all of that on the monitor and just said, "We're good like, we can just, we can go, now we can just go through this and you don't need to do the Pitocin and we're in it." Yeah so we managed to--
[00:30:14] Lucy: Prime example though, of knowing, having known to ask and known to kind of stand my ground. Obviously I wasn't going to do it if it's going to put myself or the baby at risk. But knowing that at that point, we were both fine. And knowing that I had Jo who would never have put us in a position where we were having to make decisions we didn't want to make. Yeah, it got us to the place where I didn't have to have an induction. And so in that environment and had been there for, at that point, like over 12 hours, I managed to avoid them inducing me so --
[00:30:44] Lisa: That's no small feat. Really, truly.
[00:30:48] Lucy: But it paid off. And it was only through my doula having kind of sent me timings throughout the day that I was able to track. Oh, that was happening then. Yeah.
[00:30:55] Lisa: It helps to have a doula to piece it together for you. Doesn't it.
[00:30:58] Lucy: Totally. And also we had used the TENS machine, which I totally forgot about and use that to great effect. It was a godsend.
[00:31:06] Lisa: Good.
[00:31:07] Lucy: I think as well, just because when you're hooked up to all those machines and you don't have any mobility and you can't get in a bath or all those things having something else that is a distraction, just really it's like, that becomes your tool. So that was my version of all of those things, I guess. And I was controlling it.
[00:31:25] Cameron: Yeah, you started on that early as the thing, they recommend you start it before the contractions get too strong, because then it just, it has no effect. So I think, you know, during the early part, we hooked you up to it and yeah, it really worked it was a game changer.
[00:31:44] Lucy: It really was a game changer. Yeah. And I was getting a lot of low back ache as well, like I'm laboring in my lower back. So it was key. It was for that though. It was really instrumental in helping. And then sort of by about lunchtime.
It's about 12:45-ish, I guess. Jo was checking me again, I was at this point only four centimeter dilated. So obviously things were going not as quickly as perhaps I might have liked. It was suggested that I had my waters broken and I asked for that to be delayed. I didn't want that happening there and then. Carried on throughout the rest of the afternoon. Again, it all just feels like a total blur. By about 4:30, I was checked again. I had moved on a little bit I was five centimeters by that point. But again, this felt like just a really long day. So then around five o'clock. It was suggested that I have my waters broken again and kind of encouraged that was the best thing to do at that point. So we did that and that was when we saw meconium right?
[00:32:36] Cameron: Yeah. So waters broke. She did the test that was like a swab thing, I think they do a test for the meconium. I think that came out positive.
[00:32:46] Lucy: At that point we realized obviously there was meconium, which obviously suggested to me that he probably when he was born anyway, he was not going to go straight onto my chest.
[00:32:52] Lisa: Combined with the fact that there was some fetal distress on the monitor.
[00:32:56] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:32:56] Cameron: This was after they'd all come in and I think they broke the waters after. So I guess essentially, you know, cause they had, she was on constant monitoring. The baby's heart rate was going down during her contractions and, they could see that, and Joe came in during one of the contractions, cause she could see out in the nurses station and the heart rate was dropping, the baby was in distress and you know, all of a sudden the rest of the nurses come in, lights, come on, we're putting Lucy on oxygen.
You know, Jo's trying to sort of probe the baby just to sort of shake it internally just to get it, get it going again. And
[00:33:37] Lisa: Probably a little scalp stimulation.
[00:33:39] Cameron: Exactly and it was, it was scary. Yeah. It was, you know, you're sitting there and all of a sudden your wife's getting an oxygen mask put on her and doctors rushing in. And so the baby was in some stress and they could see that. And I think that's when Jo's like, "We'll break your waters. Like let's just do this. This is, we haven't done this yet. It's the next logical step to sort of get things moving quicker."
[00:34:00] Lucy: And I think and at this point is when my contractions also just started to-- I mean, they put very intense, but it got to the point where I, when I hadn't really, really prepared for that, there was no break in my contractions. It just like, felt like they were just rolling into each other. And I don't know what's really long and what's not, cause I've not gone into labor before, but they felt like they were very long and you were watching them on the monitor and they were appearing very long. I just wasn't getting even like these few seconds of rest in between I kind of had expected; was just not happening.
[00:34:33] Lisa: I would expect that more of an induction, you know, Pitocin often creates those on top of each other contractions either that, or often when we're in transition, but oh that's tough.
[00:34:44] Lucy: That was around, I guess, like 7:30, 8 and my blood pressure would-- I traditionally have a really low blood pressure. My blood pressure had spiked, baby's heart rate dropped dramatically. And yeah, it was just getting to the point where I just didn't know, I was, I just didn't know what the next step was. I kind of was overwhelmed by it all. And I guess labors are very long and tired and everything, but I just hadn't expected to not have any gaps and for the contractions to be that long for that long a period of time. At which point I was kind of like, what are my options? And everybody had been really good to not kind of suggest what my next steps were.
[00:35:21] Cameron: But also backing up to when everyone came in, you know, at that time as well, the anesthesiologist came in the other doctor who would be the one administering a C-section came in and basically started telling us, and, you know, they had a form for us to sign, you know, sort of agreeing to, if this has to go down, then we agree to it.
And it was a full-on moment because, you know, they're sitting here telling you like, okay, sign this form because we want you to do a C-section and your oxygen mask is going on and the baby's heart rate and Lucy's blood pressure and.
[00:35:57] Lucy: It all felt very dramatic.
[00:35:58] Cameron: It was very it was very dramatic.
[00:36:01] Lucy: And I suddenly started panicking more. Cause I was like, what? What's going on? Like we need this baby out healthy and happy
[00:36:07] Lisa: Yeah not helping your blood pressure.
[00:36:09] Lucy: Yeah. I feel like this is going that way right now, and my contractions are ridiculous. I'm and I don't know what the next step is to make sure that the baby's here healthy. So at which point I kind of, they left the room and I think I turned to someone and I was like take me in for a C-section now we just need the baby here we just need the baby here healthy and happy, to which everyone was kind of like, "Okay, let's take a step back. That's like very far away from where we are right now."
[00:36:33] Lisa: But it doesn't feel that way when they're coming in with paperwork and talking about a C-section, right?
[00:36:37] Lucy: Yeah. And I just was starting to worry about, you know, how much, how much distress he was in. And the fact that if my health was suddenly starting to deteriorate would that affect him, all those things.
[00:36:48] Cameron: I think things regulated for, for a little bit the baby's heart rate was stable for a little bit. So things did calm down. We kind of got back to where we were, but your contractions were strong.
[00:37:01] Lucy: Crazy. Yeah. And I was exhausted by this point. Yeah. You know, you haven't eaten like for however long I couldn't really consume liquid either. Anyway. So at this point I was it this quite a little bit later, so around 11 o'clock, I think 11:00 PM, I asked for an epidural and honestly the 15 minutes waiting for that felt like the longest 15 minutes of my life.
[00:37:30] Lisa: That's why in class I say, okay, support partners, if she requests the epidural, that waiting time is critical.
[00:37:36] Cameron: And at this point she was laboring and standing up. And she had, I was essentially like taking all of her weight on me and in the contractions weren't stopping they were rolling into each other. And it was, you know,
[00:37:50] Lucy: And this has been going on for like hours.
[00:37:52] Cameron: Of just this constant, you know, pain that you were obviously in and yeah, it's, those were a long, 15 minutes waiting for that to happen.
[00:38:04] Lucy: Anyway, so at which point the anesthesiologist comes in and the thing that I'd been most scared of was having an epidural and the thing I was least scared of in the whole process was having at that point, was having the epidural. I was just like, put it in me I don't care like anything that's going to take the stress out this. It wasn't the pain it was just the stress that I wanted to avoid for him and whatever goes after that point.
[00:38:24] Lisa: That's, can I ask, so was the epidural totally your idea, or did any of your labor team
[00:38:30] Lucy: I'd asked nobody to suggest, other than the medical team, when they kind of came and made me sign this form, no one had suggested it. They kind of honored my request at that point, it was very much me that turned to them and said, I think at this point I need to do something that's going to help.
[00:38:42] Cameron: You basically asked for your options.
[00:38:43] Lucy: Yeah. I said, what are my options? And I said is an epidural in my options and they were like, "Yeah, it is."
[00:38:49] Cameron: Knowing Lucy, and the fact that she'll only take a Tylenol when she has the flu or whatever the fact that she even said, "What are my options?" We all know what that meant. Like she was at the end of this process. She had done as much as she could have done.
[00:39:06] Lucy: Yeah. You know, there's so much, I probably placed a lot of stigma on having an epidural and like not being like, "Oh, I've done it all naturally," I hate using that word, but you know what I mean? Like had a lot of pressure on myself to kind of try and adhere to what I thought was how I wanted to labor.
And actually asking for that, I think actually prevented me from in the long run, having a C-section and, you know, the thing eventually happened, he ended up being delivered by vacuum and because I'd had the epidural that made that so much easier. And I just think there was a lot of things that I was saved from because, we did that. So I think it's the right thing to do, I guess we'll never know, but I believe it was.
[00:39:48] Lisa: Well, I've been doing this work for 11 years and reading your story I totally agree with you. Yeah. It seemed like it really, really-- well you're about to share, but it really did the trick in terms of helping what seemed like it was heading toward a C-section totally turn around. But you share, instead of me saying those things.
[00:40:08] Lucy: So I had, they put the epidural in and the idea obviously was I would get some rest that I would be much calmer, you know, I'd have some time to nap and then I would gradually hopefully dilate a little bit more. It was funny because as soon as I had the epidural, that classic situation happens where Cam's like, "My wife reentered the room," and I suddenly turned to everyone. I'm like, "What did everyone have for lunch today?" And
[00:40:31] Lisa: You get back your social self, right? And it seems so much more normal.
[00:40:34] Cameron: It was the weirdest thing because it was like she was having an out-of-body experience. So then the minute the epidural was given, it was like she sort of bounced back and it was Lucy again.
[00:40:44] Lucy: I think everyone laughed when I asked about lunch cause they were just like, Whoa, Whoa, hang on a minute. This is not the person who was here, like ten minutes ago. So, yeah, my heart rate regulated, like my blood pressure, I think came down; most important thing was that his heart rate regulated and everything calmed down a bit because at one point his heart rate had been lower than my heartbeat so, you know, all really bad things happening to him that shouldn't have been happening.
So it was for the best. So yeah epidural was given and then I started thinking, "Oh, I'll have a little nap now," and then that didn't happen because by, I think in about half an hour later, I was suddenly nine centimeters dilated. So I've been given the opportunity to kind of relax and my body had relaxed and obviously that's what it needed. It just needed the opportunity to let go really and then I think at 11:45 PM, I was--
[00:41:36] Cameron: It was like an hour or an hour and a half from the time the epidural came to like reach fully dilated.
[00:41:42] Lucy: Yeah, and actually giving birth and I felt the urge to push as well, which obviously I wasn't necessarily expecting with the epidural. I actually could feel a lot more than I thought I ever would with the epidural. Like, I feel like I felt everything, but just without the crazy pain. And I guess, cause it wasn't in me for that long. Like it didn't, it wasn't building up or whatever. I didn't press the button to intensify it. So yeah so then I started pushing and actually like even despite having all the wires connected to me, I still wanted to try a few other positions, which I hated. So that was me thinking I definitely wouldn't want to be on my back. And I was like, just put me on my back. I'm happiest and this position.
[00:42:15] Lisa: You never know.
[00:42:17] Lucy: So then yeah, then I started pushing. Cam gave me a great tip when I was pushing, because everyone was trying to, I've done all the practice pushing, you know, beforehand, and like that all went out the window. I forgot about all of it. So Jo was trying to like coach me through it and I just, I was kind of getting there but not really.
[00:42:35] Cameron: You couldn't get the right kind of push I think that they were looking for like, when Jo was like, let's just practice pushing. And I, I said, I was like, just, "Pretend like you're straining." Yeah. And she's like, "Oh, I get it." And like, that's when you sort of knew what you needed to do.
[00:42:51] Lucy: Yeah, what I needed to do. It was the cue I needed I was too delirious at that point to really think straight, so Cam gave me the perfect cue. So then yes, and then I started pushing and as I started pushing, it became apparent that he was in I guess a compound position, is it called? So he had his hand in front of his face and wasn't going to come out very easily and was going to need the help of a vacuum to be delivered. So Jo was really good at kind of setting the scene and saying, obviously lights are gonna go on now.
It's going to become a very medical environment to be a whole team of staff that come in. It's not going to be this calm environment with music and the playlist; it's going to be very much like a scene from an ER ward or whatever.
[00:43:30] Lisa: Yeah. Because in the vast majority of circumstances in a hospital, well, the vacuum or the forceps would only be used in a hospital setting, at least in the U.S. And the vast majority of the time midwives are not allowed to do it in hospitals. It's always switching over to an OB's care.
[00:43:47] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:43:47] Cameron: I think when she was pushing baby's heart rate was again dropping. So I think the staff was literally just outside the room ready to come in with the vacuum because they were watching what was happening and they could see Lucy trying to push, baby was in distress, and so they were sort of ready for that. And Jo prepped us for that.
[00:44:08] Lucy: Yeah totally prepped us.
[00:44:09] Cameron: They're outside the door ready for this. If it needs to happen.
[00:44:13] Lucy: And she knew it was going to happen, she'd seen the position and knew it was going to have to happen. Anyways,
[00:44:18] Lisa: I love that she prepped you for that because otherwise it might have been a lot scarier.
[00:44:22] Lucy: I think I thought, I didn't know what I thought. I hadn't really, I guess I've never thought about a vacuum delivery. I mean, obviously we talked about it, but it was so far removed from what I kind of ever expected. I think I probably imagined that I'd have a C-section before they've even had a vacuum. So they came in and showed me what it was that they would put on and everything else. And I guess it, I mean, I don't think they give you much time for that to work anyway, but it does work pretty quickly. Put it on the baby's head I guess, and just pull him out. Which happens.
[00:44:50] Lisa: Well, I want to point out you're still giving birth when a vacuum is being used. You are still doing most of the work.
[00:44:56] Lucy: I felt it; don't get me wrong. And that was something I was really pleased, but like, I never felt like the ring of fire, but I did feel like him travelling through my birth canal and felt like the whole process of giving birth. Obviously just felt like it happened pretty quickly. And they obviously say, " If she doesn't get him out in the next one, we're going in straight in for a C-section." And honestly, that was the best thing I think they could've said.
[00:45:17] Lisa: That'll motivate you.
[00:45:19] Lucy: Yeah, it totally motivated me I was like," I've not got this far and now need to have a C-section." Pushed, literally like my life depended on it. And at that point he did come out. And another thing as well, I had really, really bad indigestion; I think I mentioned to you; I had reflux when I was pushing, which is something I was not prepared for. And it was actually overwhelming to the point where I like I didn't, I felt like I couldn't focus on the pushing cause it was so overwhelming the sense of like acid and just sitting there and like being like, it was just horrible.
And I'd had a lot of reflux throughout my pregnancy, like bad reflux, but this was, it was horrible. It was like, my whole throat was just burning. It was probably just a good distraction technique to be honest for me pushing, but it was not a nice experience. And then, so yeah, obviously, cause he'd had the meconium as soon as he was born they took him to get that out of him, so he didn't go straight on my chest, which is something that I'd really wanted. But we made sure that they didn't do anything else to him other than what they needed to. And then he was put on my chest, like almost as soon as, I don't even know how long it was, but it was quickly. And I had ended up with six stitches, which I think is pretty standard when you've had a vacuum delivery.
I actually could feel them administering stitches and kind of flagged that I was like, "Jo I can feel them stitching me up." "Why don't you turn the epidural up? What are you doing?"
[00:46:34] Lisa: And whether it's an epidural or an injection of lidocaine, I feel like most of us feel more than we should. I don't, I'll never understand that. Cause I'm like, well then why are they even bothering to give us lidocaine or whatever, you know? So strange. It doesn't make sense to me.
[00:46:51] Lucy: Yeah. And then he was there and he seemed fine and it was all happy and healthy and we didn't know what we were having at that point. So asked her obviously found out we'd had a little boy obviously because of the nature of how he was delivered, Cam didn't get to cut the cord and things like that that we'd kind of thought would be nice that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. And I didn't realize as well, cause obviously administer pretty suddenly Pitocin afterwards to help stop the bleeding. And I found that really interesting that how it works so differently when you're in labor and then when you've delivered is in stopping the hemorrhaging versus helping to induce labor.
So yeah, and then that was that. And then we stayed in, we actually were in there a long time. We stayed in the labor and delivery room until 6:00 AM. Cause we had to wait for the anesthesiologist to come back and remove whatever she needed to remove. And then we went straight to our room and the one good thing about delivering in COVID is that we got a private labor and delivery room for free. And I think we ended up, we could have stayed two nights. We actually ended up staying an extra night because I think we had that room. And just, we felt like we didn't know what we were doing.
And I really am grateful that we stayed that extra night just getting support from the lactation consultant and all that kind of thing.
[00:48:02] Cameron: All the staff were incredible.
[00:48:03] Lucy: They were amazing, like unbelievable the staff at the hospital and like the facility was incredible. Like, yeah, it was brilliant. And Jo came to see us the next day, you know, to check in on us, which is again, that's another amazing thing about having a midwife is like they come and check on you in the next day. And she came and checked on us four days after we'd given birth at home. And then another two weeks, then a week later.
[00:48:27] Lisa: The aftercare that everybody should have but doesn't unless they work with a midwife.
[00:48:31] Lucy: Exactly I mean, it was fundamental to how we felt to reassuring us just to, you know, I got to check my stitches were healing properly and just feeling like knowing that that was all healing going in the right direction and having that reassurance.
And he lost quite a lot of weight before you know they all do, before we left the hospital. She was just really reassuring and kind of practical about advice in relation to that, and it was having that visit was the best thing ever I think about the whole postpartum experience. Especially with not having family here obviously them being in the UK and not being able to travel over with COVID and all the rest of it.
So yeah, we just feel so grateful having the team that we had and being able to make those decisions that we can make, because we had Jo delivering and we had the support and our doula obviously being the great advice that she was and support as well. And that was another thing when I was, when I first heard about, I didn't really know much about doulas, I guess, before I chose mine. And I was always like, "Why would you have a midwife and a doula? I don't really understand this." And it was only when I was in labor that suddenly I was like, this makes total sense like the midwife is literally there just to do all the medical stuff and the doula was there to be doing all of the practical, like hands-on massage, support for Cam, like without a doubt, like having both of them, there was fundamental.
[00:49:52] Cameron: I could not have done it without our doula. It's the things that you need to say to do to reassure your partner and having that extra support is what was key, I think, and just-
[00:50:05] Lucy: And also just silly things like when you're trying to go to the bathroom, when you're laboring with all of the IV drip and all the wires, and like disconnecting them, having her do that instead of having to have Cam do that every time, like, it's just, just great. I mean, obviously your husband, your partner, whoever it is, sees everything that they never thought they'd see in their life. Yeah having her there to kind of help with that sort of thing. And I think it was good because we were at the hospital for such a long time and she was there and throughout the whole of our labor really, rather than having any time at home for it. It was amazing having her.
[00:50:40] Lisa: Yeah, cause it was long. It was how many hours total?
[00:50:43] Lucy: I think about, well it was 8:30 when we went in and then he was born at 2 on the Thursday. Sorry that grunting you can hear in the background is the baby
[00:50:51] Lisa: Over a full day
[00:50:52] Lucy: And yeah 32 hours something like that,
[00:50:55] Lisa: That's long, I mean, and also inductions take on average 24 hours. So yeah. And Cam did Jeanette, did your doula tell you go take a nap or remind you to eat or drink? Or what, in what ways did she support you in addition to what you already shared.
[00:51:14] Cameron: That first morning we both took turns just to go out and get a coffee. She went first. Then she got back then I went,
[00:51:22] Lisa: I'm glad policies had loosened up enough to where you could do that.
[00:51:26] Lucy: Thank goodness.
[00:51:26] Cameron: Yeah thank God.
[00:51:27] Lisa: So remind us what month you were giving birth in?
[00:51:29] Cameron: March 2021
[00:51:31] Lisa: So like a year into the pandemic.
[00:51:33] Cameron: So that was good. And then I don't think I left again. I don't think we, like, we took turns obviously, like, you know, I would go and sit down and she would be with Lucy and, you know, while she was covering contractions and then we'd switch. And--
[00:51:47] Lucy: Honestly the power of Jeanette, the amount of pressure she put on my back for hours and hours, I don't know how she did it. She, I mean her arms must be the strongest arms in Brooklyn.
[00:52:00] Lisa: We're going to say, "Hey Jeanette, put that on your website, the strongest arms in Brooklyn!"
[00:52:05] Lucy: At one point I do remember thinking like, how has she done this for so long?
[00:52:10] Lisa: Sometimes it takes us weeks to recover after a birth. And we have to really be careful with like our form, you know, and which is why when we did the hands-on comfort measures in class that I was saying, "Hey, partners, have your ergonomic health in mind and your alignment in mind," because it can really be a lot.
[00:52:29] Lucy: It was definitely key. Yeah. And then she came around obviously afterwards as well, like a couple of days later, which is great too, just to have her there for that support and all that kind of thing. So yeah, that was our, that was our birth story. I do remember as well another thing when I was pushing with the overwhelming thought, I think was just thinking, how bad my hemorrhoids were going to be afterwards. I was just lying there thinking... and, and that was like another distraction for me. It was just that things that you just think you're not going to think about, but instead you start thinking about when you're giving birth or you just kind of, yeah.
[00:53:00] Lisa: Did you want to talk at all about postpartum and healing? And I know that you saw Sonya.
[00:53:08] Lucy: Yeah. We saw Sonya before we gave birth. So Sonya's a pelvic floor therapist, going to see her again next week. Just to kind of suss out what's happened to my pelvic floor and what situation it's in now.
But postpartum, I think, at two and a half weeks old, our baby was, he got an infection, so he was, we were rushed to the ER and he was in hospital for four days, which was very, very stressful, but also kind of really highlighted to us how we'd invested so much time and energy in everything pre-birth and labor that we didn't really spend any time thinking or digesting anything about childcare or preparing for like what to do with him when we got home.
I think it just all felt like we'll deal with that when we get to that point. But actually I think on reflection, I probably should've invested a little bit more time or just like, I don't know, made some notes that I could like quickly look at, you know, in those few days after giving birth.
[00:54:03] Cameron: Hence the extra night in the hospital, we didn't want to leave.
[00:54:06] Lucy: On reflection I probably would now have a postpartum doula, especially because we're in the time where, you know, I didn't have any family members and Cam didn't take any paternity leave. So we were just like, he was straight back to work and it was just, you know, there on your own, dealing with recovery and dealing with a newborn and not really knowing what to do.
And I guess everyone's in that same boat, but yeah, I think if I'd have had a postpartum doula for like, I think even just a couple of hours and that first week, I think it would have been a godsend. Just to have someone at home while you're going about your day to day, just to reassure you about things or like help you out or give you a bit of time to just reflect on like everything that's happened.
[00:54:45] Cameron: I think it's more of the reassurance. I think, you know, you have no choice, but to figure it out, you haven't-- you just brought this baby home and it's the two of you and your baby and you, you have to become parents and you have to do everything that you need to do. So you have to figure it out.
But I think having, having reassurances to, you know, someone to be like, yeah, this is right, this is normal. This is supposed to happen. All of that I think is helpful.
[00:55:14] Lucy: I didn't really anticipate kind of how, how much labor takes a toll on your body and how you just can't do anything and how long that lasts for, and I just, I don't think anything prepared me for how painful labor is and how it doesn't, you're not bouncing back after two days, you can't walk from your bathroom to your bedroom for weeks, let alone, like--
[00:55:40] Lisa: Particularly with vacuum delivery.
[00:55:43] Lucy: And that's another thing, like, you know, you don't know how you're going to end up delivering or so how quickly or not quickly you're going to recover. And it actually turned out I had an infected cyst as well, which I think slowed down my recovery as well. So there was loads of factors that meant that all the things I'd been doing before I gave birth, I'm just about starting to do now seven weeks postpartum, not seven days postpartum as I was kind of expecting. But having somebody there to help out would have made things a lot easier, definitely.
[00:56:11] Cameron: And also having to go back to the hospital for three nights at two and a half weeks was not ideal and definitely slowed Lucy's healing process down tremendously. Also just like when you're trying to get into some sort of routine or get into the swing of things, when you're trying to establish this new life at home, and then you feel like maybe [you're] making some progress, then it just sort of gets turned upside down and you're back in the hospital. That was honestly one of the super unfortunate, and it's kind of just messed things up a bit.
[00:56:44] Lucy: And to that point, like I was saying, there's certain things I wish I've educated myself a bit more about, like, we didn't realize that if a baby under six weeks has a fever above a hundred, like it's really, really dangerous. Six weeks, it's not so dangerous, it's just a fever. But at that I had no idea and it was only because I kind of did that classic thing was like, "Oh, I won't message the pediatrician. I'm just going to sound like a paranoid parent." And then finally did message the pediatrician to say, "Oh, he's been very sleepy and he's not really eating he's making these whimpering sounds but I'm sure it's normal, but is it?" And she was like, "Check his temperature," and that's when we did check his temperature and it was obviously like 101.4. And we were told to rush to the ER, but things like that, like I just, yeah, I just didn't know to check for.
[00:57:32] Lisa: Yeah. And even if you heard it in birth class, it just doesn't all stick-- it can't all stick with you. There's no way it can. Yeah. Usually the threshold is 100.4; if it gets to that or anything higher for birthing person, the postpartum parent or for the baby, that that's the time to seek out some care.
[00:57:51] Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. And even just like knowing what would happen if a newborn does get rushed into hospital, like what's going to happen, what are they going to do? Like, I just kind of expected them to be like, Oh, you're fine. We'll just take his temperature and then you can go home. But
[00:58:04] Lisa: Spinal tap probably?
[00:58:05] Lucy: Spinal tap, yeah within 10 minutes of me being there and obviously Cam couldn't come in because of COVID. So I was on my own with him for four days; in 10 minutes were on an ER ward, just a general ER ward on a bed, like a normal bed. The baby is just placed on and he's having, blood taken a catheter up him, urine taken spinal tap, which, you know, I didn't really want an epidural for my pregnancy, let alone my two and a half week old baby. They were x-raying his stomach. Another thing I'm like, " My two and a half week old baby having an x-ray; what's going on?!" And then they want to put him immediately on to antibiotics. Like all these things, you're just thinking, "Oh, I didn't think he'd be having any of this for years." [and it's happening] in the first few weeks of his life. So just to feel like if we had maybe paid a bit more attention to the things that could potentially happen to a newborn. So, yeah.
[00:58:57] Lisa: It makes me want to brainstorm about like, can I make a little tip sheet that just gives a few like boils things down into like an easy tip sheet for new parents to just jog memories of some of the most important pieces of, you know, to remember as you become a parent, because it's just so overwhelming otherwise.
[00:59:15] Lucy: And even just to put that on your fridge, like not even look at it before, but just say, okay, I'm going to print it out. I'm going to put it from my fridge when they come home from the hospital or when I had my birth at home or whatever, and then look at it and like, not think about it and worry about it beforehand, but just have it for that first day.
So you can say, oh, these are the things I need to think about now. Yeah, I think that would be really helpful and beneficial for any first-time parents that come haven't been anything before. And hopefully you won't have to deal with any of those things, but just in the chance that you might have to, that, you know what to look out for, and obviously just follow your instinct as well. I checked in with so many people who were like, "Oh babies are sleepy, you know, babies get tired, like, don't worry too much about it." But instinct, I think did tell me, like there was something not quite right, and what [caused us to make] this trip. And also [we] have a really good pediatrician. We have an amazing pediatrician. I think that makes a big difference too.
[01:00:07] Lisa: Did your midwife recommend the pediatrician or how'd you find them?
[01:00:09] Lucy: No it was well, it's just because, their practice is two blocks away from us. So I think I'd spoken to someone a couple of years ago that I knew that she'd been their pediatrician. And when I found out I was pregnant, I'd I contacted her as well. And she's not my actual, my general doctor, but she's been really supportive. So yeah--
[01:00:28] Lisa: Now I think we emailed and I think the name I gave you was that same person you had already heard of.
[01:00:33] Lucy: Yeah, she's amazing. She's just been phenomenal and like, I mean, the moment she found out he was in hospital, we got admitted at 1:00 AM in the morning and she'd called me by 7:00 AM that morning to check and see what was happening. And like, she wasn't just asking me about him and she was asking about me. She was checking that I was being looked after and getting things that I needed. So yeah, she's phenomenal, phenomenal.
[01:00:54] Lisa: That's wonderful. All right, well, are there any other things that you haven't gotten to share as we start to wrap things up that you would like to share or any final you've already given some great tips for expectant parents or new parents.
[01:01:08] Lucy: And another thing also is, well, and I guess it's different for everybody, but I think there's so much pressure in the hospital on the breastfeeding side of things. And like, we need to give them formula now because they're dropping weight and all the rest of it. And the reality is like, I think most cases, babies putting that birth weight back on pretty quickly, it's just cause they're only getting a tiny bit. So we ended up in the hospital going against every wish of mine and giving him some formula for like a few hours, which I don't think he ever really needed.
It was just, there was a lot of pressure for us to do it. And people making us feel guilty that he'd lost weight. And it's like, that's pretty normal babies to lose weight. And my doula made a really good point. And she was like, you were on IV for like over 24 hours.
[01:01:49] Lisa: It's water weight loss.
[01:01:51] Lucy: There's a lot of water weight there too. So, you know, all of those things that medically aren't looked at cause it's like, it's not a statistic, is it? It's just like, well you were on an IV, we can pop back to that into like the actual numbers. But he was, he weighed six, 10 when he was born, which we were always quite surprised by. Cause he never measured that big when he was in my womb so yeah, I think. I would never get as stressed about that as I did at that point. Like I was so paranoid by like, he needs to put the weight on he needs to put the weight on he needs to put weight on, but we were fortunate he fed well and everything else. So I don't think I ever really needed to worry about that to the degree that I did. So yeah, I guess our take away from everything, and like advice would just be like research, research, research. Like speak to as many healthcare providers as you think necessary until you find the one that you want. Make sure you know the birth that you want and without putting yourself or your baby under any kind of medical risk, like stand up for your rights, like take Lisa's childbirth course, 100% do that. Make notes, like, yeah, listen to all the birth stories you can cause they help so much. And yeah, I really think our biggest takeaway is really just follow your gut.
[01:03:00] Cameron: The education just educating yourselves on what to expect, what can happen. And then Lisa, one thing you, you really push in your classes, just knowing how to advocate for yourself. And we use that a ton during the whole process. And it, it was instrumental like knowing when to advocate, knowing when to stand up for ourselves. And what we thought was, you know, we followed our instinct and knew what felt right at the time. And I think just knowing we, we could do that, I think was, was huge and really paid off.
[01:03:34] Lucy: And have Jo as your midwife if you can.
[01:03:37] Lisa: Yes.
[01:03:38] Lucy: Thank you for everything, Lisa, like we are indebted to you, honestly, for all of your amazing help. And wise words along the way. So thank you.
[01:03:46] Lisa: Well, I'm just so thrilled for you and congratulations again. And one more time I just want to say what an honor it is to know both of you and I hope that you will stay in touch.
[01:03:56] Lucy: Oh, I really hope so too.
[01:03:58] Lisa: I hope we can finally meet face to face in the flesh at some point.
[01:04:01] Lucy: Wouldn't that be amazing? That would be amazing. I mean, the thing is in New York we're all so spoiled aren't we? There's so many great resources out there and places to go. So we just feel very lucky that we found the best of the best in you. So yeah.
[01:04:15] Lisa: All right, well thank you again, and I hope to see you before long.
[01:04:19] Lucy: Thanks Lisa.
[01:04:21] Lisa: Take care. Bye.