Due to her experience working in Brooklyn hospitals as a social worker, Lindsay chose to work with midwives for a more personalized birthing experience. Her story includes gleaning lots of tips from friends who gave birth shortly before her, some fairly extreme work stress leading up to labor, the confusion of stop-start labor, how she had to wait a long time to get the epidural and then it slowed progress, how multiple visitors prevented her from resting, as well as the magical moment of welcoming her baby to the sounds of Led Zeppelin. We’ll discover the struggles and triumphs of early breastfeeding, the relentless cycles of pumping, and the delightful detail of her baby smelling like a freshly baked cake at birth.

Resources:

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Episode Topics:

She supervises social workers in a psychiatric unit at Woodhull
Choosing midwives for her care based on her knowledge from working in the medical system
Was working with Oula midwives but transferred just to give birth at a hospital that was closer
Switched to Park Slope midwives with Methodist hospital
Comparatively easy pregnancy, but still not easy
Got winded easily early in pregnancy, thought it was Covid but it wasn’t
A lot of acid reflux later on with vomiting
The things she misses is having a baby inside, being treated like a maternal queen
BIRTH STORY:
Flash flood flooded the hospital where she works (Woodhull), still going into work at the end of pregnancy to deal with that emergency
On a Sunday evening around 9pm, started having intense lower back and abdominal pains like period cramps
Around 11pm, goes to sleep, wakes up later and they went away
Last week, taking bus in to move her office, having a baby shower at work
Goes in for ultrasound and NP recommends induction due to size of baby, but Lindsay didn’t want it
Postponed, wanted to check in with midwives
Midwife recommends some natural induction techniques, recommends sex and maybe other things
Had plans to go to a concert that night, but they were really tired and it was a rainy night so they stayed home and she slept for 12 hrs
Around 3:45am the next night/morning with strong contractions
Using birthing ball, cat/cow, pacing, groaning for about 2 hours
Gerard wakes up and asks if they should go to hospital. She wants to call midwives instead
Shannon returns their call and gives them options
Takes a bath while Gerard he gets food, finishes packing
They call their doula
In bath for around 90 min – first hot then cool
Eventually feels done with it
Couldn’t eat due to too much intensity
Really tired, lying down didn’t work
Had to be on all fours or on knees propped against bed
They decide to leave for hospital around 9:45am because things are so intense
No chance of walking to hospital like she had planned, beyond that possibility
Contractions 90 sec long, every 2 min or so
A hospital staff member finds them on the street and helps navigate them to where they need to go
Have issues finding a good vein to find an IV, extravasation happens
Midwife Shannon comes and does an exam, tells her she’s 6cm
Gets into room around 11:15am
She requests an epidural, takes around 45 min for the anesthesiologist
Because she was yelling so loud, they also gave her fentanyl as well (but didn’t tell her it was that specific drug)
Epidural might have slowed things down, but helped her relax and be able to eat
For some people opioids will hype you up, which was the effect for Lindsay
Family members come for a while
Doula comes later, around 7pm
Backing up, water broke around 1pm
Midwife recommends pitocin because epidural had slowed labor down
Tried nipple stimulation with staff and family coming in and out, eventually worked (considered a vibrator but chose nip stim)
Epidural runs out, she strongly advocates to get more numbing before getting pitocin
3 midwives - Shannon, then Danielle, then Shara
Shara encourages her to push and encourages her to stop the epidural meds but Lindsay doesn’t want to
Pushed for 2 hours before she could feel anything, then an older purple-haired midwife from the practice who she hadn’t met – she was a fetal positioning expert who wants to turn off South Park
Chooses to turn on “Achilles Last Stand” by Led Zeppelin for pushing
She starts hearing rumblings for a cesarean and Lindsay gets new resolve to avoid that
Attending is outside the room with a stretcher
Midwife tells her to start swearing, get mad
“When the Levy Breaks” comes on
Gerard reminds her about a traffic cop who double ticketed her and that’s effective at getting her mad
She finally agrees to reduce the epidural by half
Once she could feel it made a difference in her ability to push
She found it helpful to see a photo of baby crowning
Baby came to her for about 20 seconds and Gerard had to pretty quickly had to cut the cord because baby needed oxygen
Baby smelled amazing, like vanilla cream
“Over the Hills and Far Away” - Led Zeppelin song playing when he was born
Doula helped her get breastfeeding started
She lucked out and got a private postpartum room; Gerard stayed the first night
1st nurse in postpartum was very young and anxious to get him breastfeeding and saying if she doesn’t feed soon he might have to go to the NICU, rushing her to the bathroom too fast. This was the only less than optimal support received at this hospital.
She had a lot of anxiety about going home
More on breastfeeding support in the hospital, struggling with manually expressing colostrum
Baby blues - 2 days after birth in a breastfeeding class crying when partner was being a bit critical, weighing her and she hasn’t lost any weight – brings about a lot of feels
Going home ended up being really beneficial and her trust in herself starts to return
Before they went home the consultant gave them a triple feeding plan when going home
Worked with a lactation consultant virtually through her insurance
Trying to build up her milk supply
May try a different pump to see if she can express more milk
Formula stinks, while breastmilk smells and tastes great

Interview Transcript

Lindsay: I'm Lindsay. I am a social worker. I work at a public hospital in Brooklyn, in the psychiatric emergency department. I live in Prospect Lefferts Gardens. I have been a mother for six and a half weeks now. We gave birth in October, end of October of this year. Yeah.

Lisa: Lindsay is a student of mine, a former student of mine. She took birth class with me, in person, right? I was looking back at the class picture. And when was that? I didn't look at the date.

Lindsay: It was in August.

Lisa: Because we did have our picture outdoors on my deck, thank you so much. And as you were reminding me about what you do for a living, I was reminded that in class, you gave some wisdom in the postpartum wellness mental health topic, and I have adjusted my slide in terms of when to call 911. I removed that. I just said, call for medical assistance,

Lindsay: I appreciated the insider tip on that, in New York City, specifically

Lisa: careful when you're going to call 911 because there are dynamics here that we might not have in other places in the country that could be problematic. Thanks for that. All right. Well, let's get started. Let's talk about your prenatal journey.

Lindsay: So I knew I wanted to work with midwives, but also give birth in a hospital. I'm very much a believer in modern medicine, but I also, as a person who's worked in healthcare for over a decade now, I also am aware of the limitations and when it comes to working in like a more classic system, it's going to be more rare to come across somebody who maybe is in it more for passion, and less in it for, liability. Let me rephrase that. I don't mean they're in health care because they care about liability. I mean that the facilities themselves stress that more, so as a health care provider, even myself working in a hospital, and this is one of the reasons that in the class, when I said to be aware, it's very similar, right?

With any sort of area in a hospital that there's certain things that you need to stick to, and it's more about the hospital being up to par with regulations and less about maybe the actual need of the patient there in that moment. There's reasons for it, right? They're good reasons, but as an individual person, you might be more interested in working with somebody who's more tailored to what your needs are. And also maybe more up on actual research, right. I think that you have more freedom when it's a midwife, something that's more non-traditional, that allows more room for actually looking at what is evidence for certain things versus What did the latest regulations suggest, which might be out of date?

I also have a lot of friends who worked with midwives, and I had one friend in particular who had a midwife, this is not in New York City, so I'm not throwing anybody under the bus here, and had planned on doing a home birth and was In labor at home, for about two days before they realized, okay, we need to actually get you to a medical facility.

And then she had preeclampsia and had they waited longer, she may not be with us today. So this was the reason that I was like midwife cool, but also not just that. and yeah, I am pretty satisfied, I would definitely work with them again if we're still living in this area, if we have another kid, if we're so lucky to do that.

I did originally work with Oula which is like kind of a newer midwife group. Found them on Instagram, very much like a fancy environment. They have a beautiful bathroom with all the amenities. And I was really happy working with them. However I live in Brooklyn and they are affiliated with Mount Sinai West, which is a great hospital, loved my appointments there. The ultrasound was really amazing. Very clear. but I had a friend at work who was like, why are you doing this? Like you should work with Park Slope midwives, they're wonderful. I was like, you don't understand, I'm getting like state of the art care with Oula, they're awesome. And he was just like, think about how close Methodist Hospital is to where you live. And I really started thinking about and thinking about it and I was like, okay, let me switch there because if I go into labor and it's like rush hour, we could get in traffic, I've been stuck in traffic on the, West Side Highway, and it's not fun, and now being at the other side where I just did a 20 minute drive, it had been in my birth plan, my very loose birth plan, because I never really officially finished it, to walk to the hospital. I was going to do this, but then, the circumstances did not quite allow for it, and I was very glad that the drive was fast because I cannot imagine if it had taken really much longer than it did, which was only 20 minutes. And it could have potentially been a couple of hours if we had had to go across the bridge. So I switched to Park Slope,. and they were great.

You know, Oula feels like a startup, it's very, very fancy. but the actual core of the type of care that you're going to receive at Oula versus Park Slope, you have the same sort of quality in your provider. Very similar model in terms of they have a group of midwives, both providers, so you, every time you go in, you work with a different midwife. That way you get to know an array of them, with the hope that you will have met whoever is there for your labor at least once, before you go there. Because they're in rotation for that component, based on who's on call.

I actually had three of them there with me for my labor. And only one of them I met

Lisa: You mean rotating three? Not three at once.

Lindsay: No, not at once. Although two at once at the end, but we'll get to that. But I had actually only met one of them before, but that is the one that was there for the actual delivery and I saw her again for my six week follow up. very special. Although she was disappointed I did not bring the baby.

Lisa: Oh, yeah. We always want to see the baby.

Lindsay: Yeah. fair. I did show her pictures. But yeah, so my pregnancy in general, I would say the way that I've always framed it is I think that I had an easy pregnancy based on what I hear from other people.

But with that being said, pregnancy is not easy. There's parts of it that I actually, really liked and kind of miss in some ways . Which is funny 'cause I didn't expect that. but, at the same time, like it's a lot, it's a big mind f-ck. I don't know if it's okay for me to curse on this, but it's a big mind f-ck in terms of you just gain weight really fast.

And even though there's a reason, it's one thing to think about it intellectually and philosophically, it's another thing to actually experience it. Also, the impact that has on your body, I remember one of my first symptoms was like, I would get winded really easily.

I actually thought I had COVID initially before I knew I was pregnant because I would be like going up the stairs and really getting winded and feeling very slowed down. I don't think that symptom impacts everybody, but for me, I had it really bad from the beginning. From the, I think the hemoglobin levels or whatever. I don't know all of the technicalities of it, but I read that somewhere. and, yeah, just feeling like your body is not capable of the same things that it is when it's not pregnant, which is frustrating. I also was very lucky to not really have nausea, morning sickness in the beginning, but the trade off was that I gained weight really quickly, because I was eating a lot.

And then later on, I had a lot of acid reflux. So I did end up having a lot of vomiting episodes, but because of that more so than because of early on nausea, um, yeah, you're peeing all the time.

Lisa: Fun time.

Lindsay: But yeah, so I do think, some people really go through a lot of sickness.

And I don't think that I had that, comparatively. I also think that I slept pretty well compared to what it can be. A lot of people told me, oh, you're not going to sleep at all the last month. Not true. I slept so much. I had hypersomnia. I was like sleeping 11 hours at a time, waking up only to pee frequently, because that's a thing, but able to fall right back to sleep.

That's one of the things I miss about being pregnant, because I can't do that now. I have to wake up a lot more than that. But yeah, there's a lot of things that are really tough about it. The things that are really great about it is, you have this little thing inside of you and it feels really magical and people treat you like you're like this maternal queen. People are like, Oh, even on the street, people will roll their windows down to be like, congratulations, you look wonderful. Now, of course, the downside of that is sometimes too much commentary from other people that can get in your head. But I already said enough negative things, so I'll focus more on where, it's nice.

And then you get special privileges, people will be like, Oh, you're pregnant, why don't you step in front of me in line? And so you feel like you're, like, the prom queen. so all of that is nice. And

Yeah, it's really, it is a really magical experience to just feel something moving around inside you that you know is going to be in your life.

Lisa: How did you decide to take birth class? And did you do any nutritional changes or any other classes?

Lindsay: no, I just took yours actually.

Lisa: I don't know, like fitness or prenatal yoga or, you know,

Lindsay: I did do some prenatal yoga, with Brooklyn Flow, which is, I recommend, if for no other reason, than it's like a really nice, almost like support group, because you go around in a circle and you talk about how you've been feeling.

And it's not necessarily, at least that one, I didn't go to any others to compare, but that one, it's not really that strenuous, which some people might not like, cause they might want more of a workout, but for me, when it comes to yoga, I'm not very great at yoga. I'm not very flexible. So for me, it was like a perfect one.

And it was a lot of like restorative positions and stuff that were very comfortable. So that I kind of went in waves. In the beginning I went because I did one of those packages where you can go as many times as you want for two weeks. So I did a bunch for that. And then I took a break. And then towards the end, I was going probably once every other week, So it wasn't like too often, but it was something. I did not take any other classes. I did work with a doula. So we had a couple of prenatal visits. And okay, the big thing was that, and this is also the reason I don't even know if I would have taken your class or come across, I have to give my friend Erika and her partner, Javier, who took your class before me, a lot of credit.

And I actually recommend that you have them on the podcast at some point because they're great personalities, but they also, they're just like huge pools of information they can, I don't know, they would be really good guests.

I have to give them so much credit because they're both Geminis and they're both very much like they, they do the research, they read.

But yeah, back to Erika and Javier. They just did so much research. Like Erika got pregnant and he got the ACOG book and he read it like a 700 page ACOG book and then not only that he had this thing called an air table which I've never even heard of but it's like a multi level Excel spreadsheet situation.

You know he had an analysis for comparing the cost of diapers. We had 1 comparing the cost of birth classes. So they're like, we'll just share our air table and you can do your own research based on that. And I'm like, obviously the stats here point to this one makes most sense for cost and what it covers and all of that.

So no offense to other birth classes in New York City, but Lisa's is the best. Javier and Erika did the research.

Lisa: That's so sweet.

Lindsay: So yeah, so many things and I just, I really, I would like to give myself more credit, but I have often wondered, would I have been so prepared, had she not also been pregnant at the same time, and had we not been on a group chat?

Because there were so many things that I was like, oh, should I be doing that? I think I would have sought out a doula and I think I still would have done like the midwife care and all that because that was always my plan. But the other things like certain books that she recommended, not that I didn't read too many, but specifically Emily Oster's books.

And then yeah, the birth class, actually where I got a doula from because that was something she recommended. all of this stuff was from knowing to do the What to Expect app like these little simple things. Like, I don't know if I would have come to that on my own. I was pretty prepared for the situation and I have to give credit to them because they did the preparing and I piggybacked.

Lisa: I love it. That just drives home the power of friendship and community and how much we need each other in this journey, where it's like all new. It can be so overwhelming.

Lindsay: She's two months ahead, two months and change, from when her son was born. It's made a lot easier because I'm like, Oh, Erika went through this at this point, and then I'm just like applying the things that she learned. And then otherwise I pretty much kind of went with the flow of things, when I was pregnant. I tried my best to walk as much as possible. I ate a lot of food.

Lisa: That's great. Oh, sounds good.

Great. Well, then feel free to go into your birth story and you can start wherever, like with labor starting or the last few days or weeks leading up to that, wherever you'd like to start.

Lindsay: So, the context also was I had planned to work up until the end of my pregnancy, right, until I went into labor, which I was due October 28th, and then I actually went into labor on the 22nd.

So I went out of work a week early. But basically, I had been working up until then, and I had all these plans of, I'm going to finish this and that at work so that, the last couple of weeks are just going to be, like, chill and calm, and I'll just be, like, showing up.

And, not to say that it would ever be, I supervise social workers in a psychiatric emergency department, so it's never going to be, like, completely chill, but in terms of, like, other extra things. But what ended up happening was that Woodhull flooded in the last couple of weeks. I don't know if you may have seen it on the news because it was like that rainstorm.

Lisa: Yeah, I did.

Lindsay: Yeah. So the whole hospital had to close for a week and like some people got to work from home. I tried, I was like, Hey, I'm super pregnant and I have employee evaluations to finish. Can I work from home? And I got a big no from my department. Instead I got deployed luckily to Kings County, which is within walking distance, but.

I felt very utilized, actually, that week. Like, some people had a very chill, like, week away from Woodhull, including my staff. Once I got everything set up, like, they didn't have much to do because they have their own staff at Kings County. but yeah, I went in the day after the flooding to the hospital to help with evacuating the patients, that was, like, a 12 hour day. The next day I was like on phone with my staff, with my supervisor, and then all week,

I was very engaged in just managing things. So I felt kind of the opposite of winding down. I was able to get some stuff of my own done that week, but I also was like a very amped up hyperactive week.

After that, like the hospital did reopen a week later, we returned there and just there was like all this buzzing energy. I had less time to finish all the things that I needed to finish, including that I had to move my office, which it's just like a lot of coordination and then some physical labor as well.

So yeah. And in the meantime, I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I remember that day that I was helping with the evacuation of the patients, I'm like walking up and down the hallways and the executive director of our floor was like, that baby is going to fall out of you. And I was like, not yet, he can't come yet. And yeah. I just, that kept happening.

And then about a week before I actually went into labor, it was a Sunday evening, around 9 PM. I started having these intense lower back pains, lower abdominal, kind of like period cramps. And then having waves of more intense pain and I'm like, I've never been through this before.

I hadn't even had period cramps in years. Actually, I'm very, I know probably people are listening to this, like, shut up. I was like, is this what it's like? Is this a period cramp? I think the reality is that it was more than a period cramp. I was having contractions.

I looked it up and I was like, Oh, these are labor pains. Okay. But I was like, there's no way, I was like, I still have to move my office. I'm like, you can't come, I'm talking to him. I'm like, you can't come yet. I need time. I need at least a week. I need at least a week. And I'm like, is this Braxton Hicks?

But I had remembered that, You're supposed to be able to, change your position, and they kind of subside with Braxton Hicks,still, I guess maybe that's technically what it was, because I didn't actually go into labor, but for two hours, I was, like, pacing around, going on the birthing ball, doing different, Stretches and positions that I learned both from class and then also from my doula when she had come over for the prenatal visit.

Nothing was helping. It was terrible. But I was so physically exhausted from that, that by 11 PM, I just was like, I'm just going to try to go to sleep. And I like laid down, Gerard came and gave me a lower back massage and somehow I just fell asleep through these pains. And then I woke up and they were gone and I was like, Oh, phew. Okay.

Went back to work and at this point,I think I was running on a lot of adrenaline. Oh yeah, Gerard had started a new job, also, I forgot this detail. So like I had been taking the car to work like throughout pregnancy, but he needed the car more than me for this job, because he's a school photographer, had to bring a lot of equipment there and needed the car to do this and also, had to go to Long Island by seven o'clock in the morning, right?

So I'm, like, obviously, I work three miles away, I just have to suck it up and take the bus. But here I am at nine months pregnant, taking the bus for the first time in a long time and usually an older woman will notice, oh, you're pregnant and they'll be like, here's a seat.

But man, it does not always happen. Sometimes people literally don't even look up. And then there's other people that need it too. Sometimes I'd be looking and I'm like, oh, these people are older or maybe have other medical problems. I don't know the reality just being that, I definitely was on my feet in very sardine like buses a couple of times, also worrying a little bit about Oh, COVID is surging.

So all of this is going on my last week. I'm like, he's definitely been dropping. I've, walking a little bit. Like it feels like somebody has, for lack of a better description, punched me in the crotch,like, I'd been, like, sucker punched. and also my feet were hurting all the time.

Yeah.

Lisa: Wow. You had serious curveballs.

Lindsay: Yeah. But also at that point, people were like, screw work. Just stop coming in right now. And I'm like, no, the things that I have left are like, I didn't want somebody else to move my office. Like I worked there for a long time.

I have a lot of stuff in there. It's like a joke. People are like, I'm like Mary Poppins in my office. I have all the things, including I don't know if they're going to be like, you have a hammer and nails. I don't want to get in trouble or anything. but I'm like, I don't want to be on leave and come back, and it's not set up and things like that. I really was like, I want to do that. It's not like I'm, like, the victim of circumstance completely. Some of it was, like, my preference. But also, just, it was

Lisa: Not ideal.

Lindsay: Yeah. and again, the timing that I had planned got screwed up because of this, the flooding and everything.

Yeah. So that was, like, my last week. They had a very nice baby shower for me at work. It was supposed to be that week that we were deployed, but obviously it didn't happen that week for that reason. So it got delayed. And so that was lovely. It was really funny. It was like all of the things that I did not do for my own baby shower was very much like more emphasis on, I wanted people to like kind of party and have fun.

We had a dance floor, our decorations were a little more non-traditional and at work it was like all of the blue balloons and the blocks that are like baby and like baby bottles and all of the stuff so it was just funny.

Lisa: Very different.

Lindsay: Very different but it was cute and you could tell that they put a lot of effort in and there were like a few different people that were in on it, this what you get when you work for 10 years you make a lot of friends so I feel very grateful for that.

And yeah, that's pretty late though for a baby shower, but maybe all the flooding and stuff. Yeah, it was two weeks later than it was supposed to be. And then remember, the baby came a week early. It's good that they had it that week because the next week I was out.

Then that Friday I had an ultrasound, at that point I'd been going in for weekly ultrasounds because he was measuring big, which my doula did say If you don't want to do that, it is normal, like we're both tall like it's normal that he's measuring big and also it could be inaccurate. So if you don't want to do the ultrasounds you can turn them down and I was like, no, I like to see him.

So I was going in for these weekly ultrasounds and he was like over the 90th percentile in terms of size. And on that Friday, when they were reading the results, the nurse practitioner who read the results was like, he's measuring nine pounds and I would recommend that you get induced now.

I was like, hell no. I was like, he is not due for another week. I am not even considering induction until Halloween, which is three days after his due date. I was like, there's no way. I was like, this could be wrong, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, all right, we want you to come in on Monday to do a follow up ultrasound.

And I was like, Monday is not good for me because it's my long day and I have work and then I have two clients. So I'll come in Tuesday. And she was like, okay. And then I was like, plus I'm going to see what my midwives have to say about it anyway. So then right afterwards I had an appointment with midwives.

We went there. And the one thing that was sticking out from what the nurse practitioner was saying was that she was like, if he gets too big, then you might like, have to have a C section because of the size, which I know from your class and from things that I've read and other things like to try tune these things out, but once somebody says it and you're in the circumstance, you're like,

Lisa: It's hard.

Lindsay: Like, is this like a, I could die from this birth sort of situation if don't listen to them?

Lisa: Yep. The anxiety.

Lindsay: So anyway, we went and we had a long conversation with the midwife that I saw that day, where she was like, you could just try some natural induction methods. Have a lot of sex this weekend. I forget what else she recommended.

I remember the sex part. She was like, basically, yeah, they could be wrong, but also could be right. And there are realities to like, if it gets to a certain point, which we don't really know if it's there, but here's all the information for you to have. We were supposed to go out that night, to my friend's concert, which I'd really been looking forward to and now I'm starting to think in my mind, this is my last chance to be social. I really wanted to go to this concert and out to dinner.

But after this, really, long saga of appointments and week, we were both really tired. It was raining really hard. Gerard was like, I am not driving to the city. And I was like, you're depriving me of socialization. But then I passed out. Slept like 12 hours. We had a really chill next day, and then at about 3:45 am, going into Sunday morning, I woke up with the pains again. And I was like, oh, okay, this is like last Sunday where we had this episode, so was like, let me not, I know Gerard has to wake up early, he has a client, so I'm like, let me just go into the other room and work through this on my own. So I have the two hours again of birthing ball, going to the couch to do cat- cow, pacing back and forth, groaning, trying to not groan too loud.

Again, it goes for about two hours and I'm like, okay, last time it was two hours and then I was able to sleep and I'm so tired. So I'm just going to go lie down again and maybe I'll fall asleep. Nope. Instead, I'm just groaning in bed really loud. At this point, he wakes up and he's like, hospital?

I was like, no, we're going to call the midwives. So we call, Park Slope midwives and they paged the midwife on call, Shannon, who I had not at that point met before. She calls and he basically is talking to her while I'm in the background, ah, and then she based on my groans is like, okay, it sounds like, you're having pretty intense contractions, but they're only like 30 seconds long, they're happening kind of fast.

She was like, it's a Sunday, so you could come in, but you'd have to come to the hospital, and could see where you're at, or you could try to labor at for a little while, and you can call back. And so I'm like determined, I'm like, no, there's things that I can do, right? I was like, can I take a bath?

And she was like, yeah, take a bath. So I was like, okay, so I get into the bath, we make a plan, cause we had on the do list for that day, finish the hospital bag. So I was like, can you finish the hospital bag? Also, can you get some food for me? and then also let's call the doula.

So I like get into the bath. We call the doula. He goes and gets food. One thing I noticed right away is that, so what was happening was that same thing where like in between contractions, I like, I Couldn't really fully relax because I had really bad cramps and lower back pain. So one thing that the bath helped a lot with was that sort of in between contraction pain, that subsided a bit.

And actually, for a while, like, it helped. Like, I was in the bath for an hour and a half. We called the doula. She was like, it sounds like you're very early labor. You might give birth in two days. just try to do these different things at home, try to, have him do massage.

She was recommending a lot to do, a guided meditation, which I will admit right away that I was Very, in general, I'm kind of resistant to, I'm like an ADHD personality, so things like that, I'm like, oh, I don't want to, that's not how I relax. But also, I think, the way that things were happening for me, it really didn't seem relaxing to something like that because, again, the pain was pretty high.

so I needed more physical distractions at that point. I ended up taking a bath for about 90 minutes at first. I did a hot bath to help with the pain, but then I started getting overheated. So then I switched to cold water. And then after a while, I was like, I am done being in the bath.

I live in a New York City apartment. I am 5 foot almost 11 And baths are great, but they're also like a luxury.

Actually, my doula had been like, why don't you consider getting an Airbnb for when you're in labor? I think maybe like noting that maybe like my apartment is, we share the apartment with Gerard's cousin and her kid, and so it's not always the most, although he wasn't there when that happened cause he's often not here on weekends. So that actually worked out. But, I just like, how would that even work logistically? Like I go into labor and I just like log into Airbnb and

Lisa: Oh, yeah. Because you can't schedule it in advance.

Lindsay: Available last minute.

Like how am I going to know when it happens? So I don't know if you've fully thought through that suggestion, but in any case, I do understand in terms of probably you can find a better bathtub somewhere. ours is not the best. so eventually I was just like done with it. And at that point, Gerard was back with the food or had been back with the food for a while.

And I like tried to eat. No dice. I was like, I can't even, cause as soon as I got out of the bath, like, all of the intensity returned. So I couldn't relax enough to chew and swallow. I am like, at this point, I'm so tired, so I'm like, I'm gonna try to lie down. Nope. so much pain in trying to lie down, try any sort of way. The only thing I did was like, literally on all fours. Or, be on my knees, propping myself against the bed. Gerard is frantic at this point, trying to pack the bag, get stuff ready, take all the equipment out of the car from that job that was part of it too.

Lisa: Oh, right.

Lindsay: All the equipment's in there, so he has to bring that in I actually don't even think was able to clear. I think the plan had to be revised of he'll have to come back and do that so that we can deal with that later. And then he's also trying to massage me.

I'm calling my doula. She's like suggesting I take a nap. I was like, I don't think, I don't know, man. I was like, it's all I want. It's all I want is to take a nap, but I don't think I can. So I, at that point I just was like, I'm calling it. We're going to the hospital. So we call the midwife back and she's like, okay, I'll meet you there.

We get into the car. It was awful. Remember I had said earlier that my birth plan was to walk to the hospital. Now when I had that plan in my mind, it was going to be like contractions every five minutes, like in growing intensity. And that just was not, I would not have been able to. I live in Prospect Lefferts Gardens, Methodist Hospital is on the other side of the park. It is not far. It is less than two miles. This is why I thought that would be a thing. I also was like, who wants to be in a car? And of course there were caveats to this plan. if it was going to be in the middle of the night, that wasn't going to work.

This was not the middle of the night. This was like, by the time we made the call, like we are going to the hospital, it was 9:45 AM. So I was like, I've been in this for over five hours now. and it is exhausting me. It is starting to feel debilitating. And in the car, that's the first time that I decided to take out the app that measures how quick your contractions are coming.

Before that, Gerard was like, oh, I've been measuring. And I'm like, how do you know when they're happening? And he goes, just every time you go, ah, I just hit start. He has, he's a personal trainer, so he has, like, all these little things like that to measure reps or whatever that people are doing. So I don't know what app

Lisa: Oh, so he wasn't even using a contraction app timer?

Lindsay: No, it was just some other fitness thing.

Lisa: How funny!

Lindsay: Yeah, fitness app. And then he's like, so it's been about, it's 30 seconds each time, that was when I was in the bath. And I was like, oh yeah, that's pretty accurate from, I guess, from when I'm yelling out, that is when they're happening.

So then I start doing that, in the car, and at this point I'm like, okay, it's like 80 to 90 seconds, and they're coming, like, every two minutes, it's rapid. he finds parking, luckily it's half a block away from the hospital, and then I must have, it's so funny, because like, it's daytime now, we're not alone on these streets, and I'm like, Walking like 3 feet and then going against the building Like,

I'm like I'm like people are definitely walking by oh, she's very pregnant. oh, we know what's happening. I just felt like this is so public. What's going on with me? We get the stoplight because we have to cross the street to get to the hospital and Gerard spots these blue pants and he's like okay this person in scrubs he approaches them and he's like do you work for the hospital because we realize we never did a hospital tour so we don't know where to go and this man takes one look at me and he's like On it.

He just becomes my patient navigator. He's directing traffic out of the way, brings me in, he is, like, Communicates with the security guard. They call ahead to labor and delivery. They even have, by the time we get to the elevator to get there, it's been queued for us.

He gets me up there,20 minutes. I don't know how long it would have taken if this man hadn't been, and he had never been to that part of the hospital either. He worked in a totally different part of the hospital. He just was like, let me rise to the occasion.

So whoever that man was, because I never learned his name, thank you. So we get into labor and delivery and like another very big lucky thing was that it, for some reason, I think there were not a lot of people going into labor that day. They were like, ready for me. They received me. They were like, your midwife's on the way in the meantime, because I was like, I need an epidural, it has been way too long.

I need an epidural. So they're like, okay, we need to hook you up to an IV then. That ends up being a struggle. They try on my right arm. I don't know if maybe I was like, too frantic for them to get it in. But like, when they put it in my right arm, it didn't really latch?

This is the word that's coming to my mind. That's not the right term.

Lisa: In breastfeeding land, aren't you?

Lindsay: The only term that I can think of right now is latch. it couldn't latch. and then I ended up having this big bubble, from where they tried. which remained for the next several days. like, just

Lisa: sounds like maybe extravasation where the fluid escapes the vein, like it didn't go into the proper place.

Lindsay: Yeah. That's exactly what it was. and it was painful. Yeah, it was kind of painful. and then they got it on the other arm and then finally, my midwife gets there, Shannon, she does the cervical exam and she's like, Oh, yeah, you're like five to six centimeters.

And so I was like, okay, cause I had a lot of like labor imposter syndrome happening. Like I was like this whole time I was like, am I just being really dramatic? Is it just that I haven't had period cramps in years and I can't, I really can't handle them. No, my body was doing a lot of work.

So that was validating. And then they're like, okay, we have your room set up. We're going to bring you in there and then you're going to get the epidural. They're like, you are next in line. There's just only one anesthesiologist because it's Sunday. You're next in line. They're with somebody else right now.

Now, that ends up taking, I had gotten the hospital around 10:15, that whole saga of trying to get me hooked up to the IV, cervical exam took maybe 45 minutes, so by the time I get into the room, it's like 11:15, and at this point, it's just increasing and increasing, and the pain is building on the pain, my body is exhausted from being in pain for so long, and the contractions are just like really strong.

so at this point, my midwife is just stepping in, She rose the hospital bed. I remember she's doing all the counterpressures on me. Gerard is looking overwhelmed in the corner. A nurse comes in and is like, try to stay as still as possible because when we do the epidural, you're going to have to be still and I'm like, in my head, are you crazy?

But it takes 45 minutes. I can't be still for 45 minutes because that's how long, so, yeah, spoiler alert, that's how long it ends up taking, right? They don't come in to give me the epidural until after noon, like 1205, maybe.

Lisa: But they're saying you need to be still before they come in?

Lindsay: Well, they're like practice being still so that when they come in.

Lisa: No, thank you.

Lindsay: What ends up happening is that I'm like, the person who was in front of me, whoever they were, bless them, I don't know what happened. I don't know why it took 45 minutes for them to get the epidural, it took 5 minutes for me to get it once they were there. But because it was taking so long with the other person, for whatever reason that was, in my head I was like, It takes this long to get hooked up to an epidural, and they're asking me to be still for that long, when I'm like, literally like, I'm trying here, but I can't, I'm not in control of my body right now.

Like I'm writhing in pain, when they came and then I guess I was yelling, loud. So

Lisa: Good coping technique.

Lindsay: anesthesiology team, there was a man there, I remember. And was like, we're going to give you a little something on top for the pain. And I was like, okay, which I later learned was fentanyl.

Lisa: Yikes.

Lindsay: Yeah. which like, I'm laughing because obviously it's a hospital. They're not like, but had he been like, we're gonna give you some fentanyl. I might have been like, what are you trying to kill me?

Lisa: They're never going to say the exact opioid that they're using. Yeah.

Lindsay: And especially that one, considering the crisis that's happening in our time, that's like the biggest killer on the street these days.

And I think I might have had a reaction had they said it. And I literally, they never said it. I think my sister read it on like the drip, for the epidural drip, was like, oh, I think this says fentanyl. So that's like how I learned, that's what that was. But what I will say is like, almost immediately, like within minutes, I was like, good. I was like, the pain was numbed out. And I think I really, I don't know. Part of me is like, what would have happened if I just kept going. Because obviously there are people who just do this without an epidural. There are also people who try an epidural and it does not work.

I've had several friends that has happened to. I don't know. I really feel like, maybe the adrenaline would have kicked in a different way, maybe I would have risen to occasion, but the way that I was feeling before I got an epidural was like, I don't have any strength. I'm so tired, I need a break from this before I try anything else.

I had remembered a friend of mine saying the epidural helped her relax enough so that she could actually push. So I was picturing what would happen for me, like, okay, one or two hours, I'll chill out a little bit, and then I'll be able to push. It's not what happened to me. What happens is I'm on this epidural, my body calms down, and then we are there for a long time. That's maybe 12. 30 p. m. until, like basically overnight. Like I think it was revisited in the morning, when I actually finally started pushing, and it was like 7am the next day. So it was a really long period.

But I feel, at least, maybe at a certain point it went maybe long and some of that I think was psychological. So this was like the learning lesson But in the beginning what the epidural enabled was for me to relax enough literally to be able to eat, that's one of the things is that, so remember like I woke up to having contraction, so I hadn't eaten since the night before and you know My doula had also been like try to eat protein, you know, the midwife try to get some protein on your way and I was not able to eat.

So finally, I was able to eat that bagel, which did have protein on it bacon, egg and cheese, which was probably the most common thing I ate during pregnancy and also probably in life. Just continued cravings from my usual self. Yeah, so I was able to eat and then, able to relax. Now I had also said beforehand, I don't want anybody coming to the hospital. This is why I got a doula. I have my partner. That's it.

But of course, Gerard announces to people, Lindsay is in labor. And then all of a sudden his mom and my sister are there.

My sister tells the story and she's going to be very happy later on when she listens to this that I'm including this that her brother in law was in town from Zimbabwe and they had been spending a lot of fun time together that weekend.

So once she got the text from Gerard that Lindsay's in labor, both he and my brother in law, her husband, started jumping up and down, What What do we do? What do we do? What does she need? What do we bring her? She's like, Should I go? And they're like, Yes! Just go! Just go! It's like a very funny scene to picture them all sort of, like, jumping up and

Lisa: Like a rom com or a comedy.

Lindsay: Exactly. And then, yeah, then suddenly they're, like there, and I'm like, Man, I said don't come! But then they're there, of course, and I'm, like, hopped up, I'm realizing now in opiates, which, like, for a lot of my life, I pictured, you take an opiate and, you're, like, nodding off.

That's like, the classic idea. But I learned through being a social worker and having clients with substance use problems, or just maybe prescribed sometimes opiates for, like, pain, that for some people it has a different effect. Like, it can make you hyper, actually. Can make you kind of manic.

And I think that was more and probably circumstantially, right? What's going on? There's all this excitement, and then now I have my sister, who's my closest person in the world, and his mom, who's also very chatty, or, or I get very chatty with her, at least. So they're there, and I'm, like, just, chatting away all of a sudden.

So that's, like, for hours, is the next part of the experience. And they're, you know, my sister's, like, man, I'm giving all your friends updates on what's going on with you, and just, she's just talking.

Yeah.

Lisa: So what was the maximum number of people you had during labor in your labor and delivery room? Like personal family?

Lindsay: So it was supposed to be two, but they clearly bent the rules

Lisa: It sounded like it. Yeah. Usually it's limited to two.

Lindsay: Now my doula didn't come, they got there in the afternoon and she didn't arrive until 7pm. So, it was just the two of them and then Gerard, and at a certain point they, like, went and got food, like, they weren't, like, there continuously.

And also, I wasn't actively in labor at that point. I was just chillin. I had gone from active labor almost to, like, all this downtime. I also do wonder, as much as it was really pleasant to have them there, I think part of me realizes, that probably upped my excitement. it was also a distraction, if they had not been there, I might have been able to, eat, and then maybe, actually take a nap, which is what I was, like, supposed to do, but because of the excitement, I did not, I literally, was up hanging out for, a really long time. I think I got the least sleep out of anybody at a certain point, even though I was in the bed and Gerard was, in a chair or like on the, they had a windowsill, they had a missed opportunity for having an interesting bed there. It's like a nice delivery room, I would say, at Methodist, and including that they had different lighting options like kind of built in. I will say, I did have string lights, as you had recommended, actually, that Erika had given me that she had used, so props to Erika again.

but we didn't end up using them until I was in the recovery room, which at that point, we did use them, and it was really nice. But in the actual labor room, they had different lighting options, but they had this, kind of, window seat, that was very long, and if they had just put cushions on top of it, this could have been a bed.

But it was not, it was hard, but he did stretch out on that at one point. But yeah, so I'm just up watching cartoons here and there, my doula came at a certain point,talking to her, cause Gerard's mom and my sister went back to our apartment to sleep for a while, so he stayed, and then the doula was there.

but yeah. Anyway, I should rewind a bit because a few things happened during this time that are all kind of quick things, one being that my water broke at a certain point, maybe around 1.30pm, which is just very like an interesting, I felt a pop, that was of course like a numbed pop, because I was on an epidural, and then a wet sensation.

So I was like, Oh, that's my water breaking. So that is what it is. and then another thing that happened with the epidural was that, so like I had dilated that much and then I went on the epidural and then it slowed down a lot. So the midwife had come back a couple hours, maybe around 4:45 p. m., being like, you should consider taking the pitocin because it's slowed down a lot.

And my reaction at that point was like, I was in touch with my doula and she was like reminding me, you can delay this. And I was remembering that from class, and so I did advocate for that, and they honored that, um, we tried NipStim, which was something from

Lisa: You did.

Lindsay: from the class at a certain point, which was a really interesting experience too, because people kept coming in.

And then we'd be like, we're having this intimate moment.

Lisa: Might be less effective with people coming in and out.

Lindsay: Eventually it did work because enough people learned that was what was going on. But it was like this wave of people learning, like including that at one point, his mom just came in and we're like, And then she was like, Oh, okay. Let me go to the waiting area. And then also there's a certain degree to which you can't fully control what happens in the hospital because they'll come in like, Oh, I just need to check. And, and that just happens.

So it took a little while, but eventually it did work, and then I will say that, one thing that I didn't fully realize before actually going into labor is how literal, it's supposed to maybe be, like, a sexual thing. Because I thought it was just, A trigger on your body and it will help like that's for some reason how I heard it but I remember on the way to the hospital like my doula texted me like massages, orgasms, and I was like huh and then there, when we're there, somebody, I forget who, explains, or maybe it was her, when she came you know eventually it might have been that like Literally, yeah, because when you have an orgasm, it is your uterus contracting, so that will help it along.

I was thinking,I had heard, including from our conversation with the midwife that Friday, that, is helpful because of semen. there's something in that that helps induce a birth. I didn't know that also, if I were to have an orgasm, that could be part of it, too. And then, I think, a nurse that we had, oh, our first nurse really lovely, it was her, I think, that some people find that out, and then they go, and I guess at the pharmacy near Methodist, they have vibrators and people go and get them. I opted out. Because I had a catheter and I was like, I cannot imagine. I just, maybe it's possible. But in my head, I'm like, there's something down there. And what if I, yeah, I like, so I was like, let's just try to do it this way with the nipples, which worked well enough. I don't know if I would say I didn't go, like, right into labor. I don't really know, but whatever the case, it was like a lovely little moment of intimacy. I guess our last intimate moment together before baby. So I'm grateful for that at least. But I do think I, maybe I would have put a vibrator in the hospital bag had I known.

So that's just like an interesting thing to add.

Lisa: Yeah. I need to check my packing list and see if that's on there. It may not be and it should be

Lindsay: I don't remember honestly, because I also there was your packing list and there was Erika's and don't know if I remember telling this in your class, but hers had like over 70 items on it.

So, yeah, those were all things that were happening during the downtime. Then one of those things was that they had just like regular cable TV. So I don't know, I didn't grow up with cable. So I'm the type of person that I'll settle on something and I'll be like, this is good enough, we can keep watching it. And what happened was that happened to be cartoons. So it is playing Bob's Burgers. It was playing South Park. And then I got really into it. I was like, no, this makes sense because often at home I'll watch cartoons and it helps me sleep. So this is supposed to help relax.

And it kind of did help me relax. But, this becomes relevant later why I'm emphasizing that. But yeah, at some point in the middle of the night, I realized that my epidural, it starts beeping, and somebody goes and looks at it and is like, oh, it's almost gone. And so I start to be like, oh no, like, I cannot return to that place.

So I start buzzing in, like, my epidural is gone and they're like, okay. They come in, like a nurse comes in, my midwife, they're like, okay. So. We know that it's down and, don't worry too much because it stays in your system for, like, two hours and maybe you won't need it as much.

And I'm, like, freaking out. I don't trust this. Part of the reason is because I had requested, and again, I work at a hospital, so I understand why things like this happen, but I had requested an antacid in the afternoon, on the first day, and it did not come for 12 hours. So I was like, that was for a little bit of acid reflux. Whatever. I think I really need this. Like, I think, in my head I'm like, I cannot go on without this assistance of this drug that I'm now dependent on, this epidural. and they're like, it's gonna be in your system for two hours, I'm like, you guys are gonna take longer than that, and I know it. I just know it. I was like, I don't trust it. And they're

Lisa: Not tricking me.

Lindsay: They're like, whatever. Don't worry. We want to talk to you about Pitocin again. And I was like, I will not do that until, and this was like a back and forth for a while now. They're like, we called in the anesthesiologist.

And I'm like, I don't believe you. I was like, I don't believe, somebody came in like I'm here with Pitocin. I was like, I do not consent. , I do not consent. I need the epidural first. So eventually I win. And I was, at that point, I was right. Now, later on, I'll get to this, I think I was wrong, but at this point, I was right because I was like, you're saying it's in my system for two hours, but it's already been an hour and half, and I'm already feeling it again, and if you're going to be giving me the Pitocin with the, idea of that's going to increase contractions, and increase dilation, and at that point, oh, I think they had done another exam at that point, and I was, I had dilated a lot more, at some point, even though

Lisa: I was gonna ask you that.

Lindsay: Yeah, I always forget this. It took a long time, but eventually I got up to 9 centimeters. So they're like, but my contractions were lazy. So the idea of at that point the Pitocin was like, we want you to have that extra centimeter. And then also we want contractions to increase so that you can push this kid out.

So, I was starting to feel the contractions though, slash maybe I just had lower back pain that now wasn't being dulled from everything else. So they did end up bringing the epidural back. And it was like a process. It took a little while. And then eventually, the midwife, so I had three midwives over the course of it.

First with Shannon, who was very involved. Then I had Danielle, who was like the overnight one, she was very nice, but like not much happened. And then Shara came in, who I had met a couple times before, and she was like, we are now going to push. And she was like, I am encouraging you. One of the first things she said, she was like, we want you to lower the epidural because I want you to know what you're doing and where to push.

And I, this is where I think it was very psychological for me. I was like, I can't. No, like, I need to be relaxed to push. Keep thinking about my friend who was like, the epidural helped me relax. Which, again, her labor story is also different. I had been on the epidural for a long time.

She did not have that same experience. And she's like, okay, true, but also, so we're like going back and forth, and she lets it go, okay, we're gonna try pushing. She's holding a leg, Gerard's holding a leg, I'm pushing and I think in my head I'm like, I'm doing great, right?

I've been doing planks all through Oh, I did a plank every day, every throughout my pregnancy. One of the things I did to prepare. That's something I do anyway. but I continued it up until literally the day before I went into labor, and then I took a two week break, and now I'm back on it.

But in my head I was like, yeah, so clearly I have ab strength, I have core strength, and I'm pushing, and they're like, ah, yeah, yeah, you're kind of, you're doing it, they're like, push from your butt, and I'm like, right, I'm doing it. So, yeah, the moral of the story is that, I did not quite know andThe reason that they were like lower the epidural so that you can feel where it is so that you know your body like kind of can understand where it needs to focus the energy. And I have no clue, I did two hoursI could really feel it again.

Or maybe like almost two hours. And another thing that happened for me was they were like, most times people push one to three hours. So I was also really fixated on that. And I was like, it's only been an hour and 45 minutes. What's the problem? Don't I have up to three hours of like a wide range of normal?

Like, why are people, I think in my head, I was like, feeling like I still need to advocate. Are they just trying to move things along? But the reality was in this case that no. At this point, it was like you are overdoing it with the epidural. you need something, even like having the motivation of the pain or something.

Now, what ends up happening is that this woman came in at around the two hour mark. I don't remember her name. She was another midwife from practice. I had never met her before. Older woman, she has purple hair or had purple hair at the time.

And I call this woman, like she saved my labor because they brought her in as a repositioning expert.

He was head down, but he was kind of sprawled in an interesting way, like his head was here, his back was over here, his feet were over there. So like, he was not straight up and down. So she was brought in originally to reposition him. And she comes in and she also notes that and a lot of people have been like, Oh, interesting, you're watching South Park while you give birth. And I was like, yeah, it relaxes me. Like this I kept happening and I was like, not getting the hint.

She comes in and she basically rolls her eyes and was like, This is what you're going to give birth to. And I was like, fine, Ms. Judgey Pants. And so I'm like, like, I had not planned this at all, even though I know that's a thing like, oh, make your birth playlist. I had not done this. So I was like,what is something that motivates me? And for me, that is Achilles Last Stand by Led Zeppelin. So I asked Gerard to put that on. And so he does. I think of that as like a song I love to work out to, or drive to, or like go to war to, so this is like me going to war with my body.

So we put that on, and she comes and does her like repositioning thing, and at this point I start hearing grumblings, right? If it's been this long, and I don't know, something about heart rate, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, oh god, they're prepping me for a c section. No way. And I felt very strongly at that point, because I was like, At a certain point in my pregnancy, I was sort of like, Oh man, a planned c section doesn't sound so bad, right?

But at this point, I was like, Man, if I just went through all of that, and then I have a different, cause that's, Other people have that story, right? Where you are recovering from essentially a vaginal birth and then also a c section. And I just was like, F-ck that.

Lisa: It's a tough route yeah

Lindsay: I mean let me see what I can do. So I hear that and then they even at that point bring in an attending from the floor, which I later learn is because they literally had the stretcher outside of my room like she was going to take me for my surgery, that attending. But instead she just helped with the actual birth.

So both midwives are there, my labor nurse, and then also the attending from the floor, Gerard is there, and then my doula is there, recording in the background what's going on, which I did consent to beforehand, but it's just like a funny scene, right? many hands on me. He's telling me later on that, there were hands up in me, doing all sorts of things.

And this same woman, this purple haired woman with the judgment, was like, okay, say it with me. F U C K. Get mad. And she was like, start yelling. And I was like, okay. And then, so I do, I start being like, get the f-ck out. I love you, but get out of me. Gerard's over there putting on the different Led Zeppelin songs.

he puts on, if you're familiar with the band, When the Levee Breaks, which is perfect. When the levee breaks, you'll have no, no place to stay. So this is the message that's on. He's also like whispering things in my ear. Think about the traffic cop. There was a traffic cop who pulled me over a year before, and I had just gone to court with, and he had issued me two bullshit tickets and then I ended up being accountable for one and I have a lot of opinions about that.

But in any case, it was the perfect thing to say to me because I was like. F-ck that guy, It was a very effective thing to say to get me, thinking about, screw that guy, because that gave me, like, all of this energy to push out my baby.

And then I did start feeling it. More because epidural, because, I did eventually, Char kept being like, how about reducing? And I was like, how about no? And then eventually I was like, fine, you can reduce the epidural by half. And whether they did it by half or by full, I have no way of knowing.

All I know is that I start feeling sensations again. And then it did make a difference because I like, I know where things are on my body. No, it did, it made a difference. They also at one point did something very helpful, which like, one of the things that you consider for a birthing plan, is do you want a mirror to see your baby crowning?

And I was like, no, I'll just see the baby when he comes out. But, they did take a picture and showed me and that was more like I had thought like this is on the birth plan for some people because you're like you can't wait to see your baby and you're just so excited to have that first moment.

No, the point was like look how far you've come. keep pushing. And it really did help because I was like, Oh, he's like right there let me like I had kind of felt He hasn't gone that And then you feel like I'm going to give up because I don't, what's the point, but the point was like, you have this full head of hair baby, which is why you had acid reflux

So that also helped motivate, I know people are different, but, yeah, I don't know how he would have come out if we did not have that many people there helping to get him out, because there were six people in the room, all assisting in the process.

when he came out, he was blue, which in my head, I was like, oh, is this what babies look like initially? No, it's not.

Lisa: To some degree, yeah, they are, they can be, but it depends on how.

Lindsay: In his case, it's because his oxygen was really

Lisa: Sure.

Lindsay: Heart rate was low. So I didn't know this later, because it all kind of is like is he alright? right? I remember, he's comes out, They lift him up over me. It's very much like Simba over Pride Rock, my baby.

which is just, an extremely sweet moment that actually, I would love to relive just that moment of him coming up for the first time. And then they handed him to me, and then I remember, almost immediately, handed the cord to Gerard to clamp. And I was like, wait a second, that's not supposed to happen, which, really Not only was it, for me, I wanted delayed, but also it's not the practice of the midwife group or the hospital to do that.

They do delayed cord clamping, but the reason that it had to be done was because they needed to give him oxygen, so they gave me 20 seconds of skin to skin, and then they took him away again. That was all like a whirlwind. I was like, oh, they're cleaning him up or something.

I'm like, really loopy at this point just from all of the intensity. But then they bring him back over. I remember he smelled so good.

I thought he would smell awful because nothing has ever come out of my body before smelling great. But he smelled I swear to God, like when you're making a cake and you use the electric mixer and like the way the air smells that comes up from that process. I feel like that's what he smelled like.

Lisa: Ooh, that's so yummy.

Lindsay: Just like this, like really sweet vanilla cream. I was like blown away. I was like,This is like literally the best smell I've ever smelled. I was really into it. oh, and also when he did come out, we think that the song, if anybody listening, Is a Led Zeppelin fan, we think it was "over the hills and far away," which I actually think is like a really special, like baby coming out, I'm about to embark on this journey of life song. So really special.

Lisa: I'll be sure to link to it in the show notes.

Lindsay: Yeah. And Led Zeppelin has a lot of songs where they have one thing going on in the beginning melodically or like tempo wise and then it'll have a transition like a beat dropping and a hip hop song.

Led Zeppelin does that a lot. And this song has those where it's like at first it's like acoustic and then it's like the drums kick in and then it's like triumphant. So, I feel perfect.

yeah. Then I was, then I got to hold him. We were doing skin to skin. My doula then at that point helped me through, like, the first breastfeeding, which, like, is such a hazy memory to me.

All I remember is that definitely, he did latch and it worked, which then has not always been the easiest after that. I will say I had heard and my experience was that Methodist has really great lactation support, but one negative thing that happened, was that like, so after we hung out for a while, I did my first trip to the bathroom.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I couldn't pee. I was like, too much. Like, I can't do anything. And they were like, okay, we'll clean you up. We'll try again upstairs. But I.

Lisa: It's terrifying when you've just pushed baby out down there.

Lindsay: Yeah. I didn't even think about Oh, I guess maybe at some point I had been told that's a thing that happens.

But I was like, what do you mean I have to go pee? I was like, really horrified by the idea. And then there's like all this blood. It got all over my pretty gown that I had been wearing.

Then they brought me upstairs. I was very lucky. This is another thing. So there were not a lot of people that gave birth that couple of days. So it would have been a shared room. I was very lucky that in my recovery room, I never had to share it. I cannot imagine. I'm sure it is the experience of many people that you do have to share it, but oh my God.

Lisa: Yeah.

Lindsay: Because you're like, I was, ugh, the amount of times I was just like, so decrepitly walking to the bathroom and, you're not in control of all of your bodily functions, so you're just like, having gas and, it's one thing if there's another person in the room who also just gave birth, but there are collaterals.

And then also having, I feel like we really spread out in the room, my stuff was everywhere.

Lisa: As you do.

Lindsay: Gerard stayed that first night and because there was an extra bed, even though you're really not supposed to, he definitely he didn't sleep a lot, he was, I have a lot of memories of him being like, he was like dealing with the baby all night and he was like, kept being like, I don't know what you want.

Oh, what do, oh, but good thing you're so cute. I just could hear him like, as I was half asleep, like going through his first night of fatherhood.

It's very endearing. But yeah, geez, if we had to share the room and also just to like, what if you have a moment where you're able to relax, but the other person is like going through that.

It's just, Oh, I'm sure that a lot of people do. So I really was lucky. but yeah, so like my one sort of negative experience at the hospital was that the first nurse, she was very young that I had, in my recovery room.

Was really anxious and she was trying to push the baby to breastfeed immediately and I guess something was going on with the glucose levels like I never really fully understood what but they were having to monitor that with him for the first day and they were pricking his little foot a lot.

although he tolerated really well, was sort of like, what is he going through? What are you putting him through? But was like, Oh, okay. He didn't cry at all.

Lisa: He was on the larger side, right? In the nine pound range. Yes. Okay. So often the glucose levels can be low when they're bigger. That might, maybe that's part of it.

Lindsay: I think actually now that you're saying that, I think that sounds right. I think that's what it was. so they were doing that but she was saying things to me like, he needs to latch right now. Or, otherwise, I have to give formula.

And if you don't let me give him like, we have to bring him to the NICU. This is how she was talking. She was also like, kind of taking his head and, like, trying to, force it on the nipple. And then she also, led me through the bathroom thing again, but, did it way too fast, and, there were parts of it that I didn't, that, a day later I was, like, oh, I'm supposed to be doing this.

So I do feel like it delayed my recovery. Things, like, start using the ice right away. I did not for the first 24 hours, and I was crazy sore. The first 24 hours is probably the most important time to be using the ice pads. And that she was like, just use this numbing cream. Don't worry about that.

Nope. That was wrong. Also, I wasn't using, she discouraged me from using the witch hazel, which a subsequent nurse was like, no, you need that to heal your stitches. because I had stitches. I left that out, but I did have tears. I had second degree tears. Anyway, at a certain point, I will give her props that she did realize what was going on, because I started crying,

Lisa: Aww!

Lindsay: And she apologized, and was like, I know, you just gave birth, and I'm sorry, I was too pushy.

So she was like, she was aware of it. And I think that she, like I said, she's young. I did end up talking about that experience a lot. And then at some point patient relations came to talk to me. And at the time I was like, Oh, that's so interesting. They're sending patient relations to check on my experience.

And then later on, I was like. No, they weren't. They don't do, I work at a hospital. They sent them there because I complained about this woman, and somebody reported it.

Lisa: Mm hmm.

Lindsay: I didn't when they came, I was like, no, my experience has been great. I know who it was, too, the lactation consultants, because I remember her going, what was this person's name?

Lisa: Ah.

Lindsay: So they totally were like, went to patient relations right after, and they were like, check in with this patient. Now when, by the time they came, I was like, no, because for the most part, like I said, I wasn't even thinking about that by the time they came, interestingly, because I thought about it a lot, but this is how the mind works.

For the most part, all of my nurses were really great. The lactation consultants were great. What is really tough, I think, that is inevitable about being at a hospital is like, there's just so much going on. And part of having good care is also information overload. So part of the reason that I stayed the 2nd night was because I had a lot of anxiety about going home. Like, how am I going to be able to manage this? And I think that when I actually went home, I felt a huge amount of relief. And what I realized is that a lot of what was happening was that I was getting instructions from different entities at the hospital. Here's a whole list of things that you need to do for your recovery.

And then here's a whole list of things you need to do if you want to breastfeed. And these things were not compatible. One of the lactation consultants, like I, decided the second night to give him the nursery because I was like, I feel like I need to recover from labor before I take him home because how am I going to be able to take care of him without sleep. Now, famous last words, because I didn't really, they still come and interrupt you frequently, even though the baby was in the nursery.

So it's not like I got eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. I, yeah. But it was, it would have been more interrupted if he was there for sure. I also, like Gerard, I was like, go home so you can sleep before we have this experience of parenthood. And she was like, this is really going to set back your breastfeeding.

And honestly, maybe it did because since then I haven't, it hasn't been perfect. Like we are triple feeding. He does not latch every day. Sometimes he latches well. Sometimes he gets really frustrated and cries. And then I'm like, okay, we will, you don't have to do this. Sometimes he's even looking for the boob, finds it, can't remember how to latch, cries.

It's hard.

Lisa: Triple feeding is so much for you.

Lindsay: Yeah, but honestly I think that in some ways it is helpful because then I'm not like, I mean pumping is a lot, but it's like I do want, I want him to have breast milk. I also really just think this is another piece that I just think it's really magical.

Just think it's really cool that your body makes this like substance that can feed the baby. And I'm like, cool. Also like my boobs look fun and full right now. There's just something very, just like womanly about it. And

Lisa: I love my boobs look fun and full.

Lindsay: Cool. They do. I'm a small chested person.

And I'm like, for the first time, I'm like, Ooh, I have these boobs. I don't think they'll last, but I'm kind of into them for now. And there was one day when the milk was coming in where they were like, kind of engorged. And was like, Oh, this is horrifying. just look deranged. Too full.

And they like settled down. But the thing that's really annoying with pumping is, I have to, no matter what, even if we split shifts, I have to get up every three hours to do that, for now, at least.

I think there's a certain point where you get to reduce, but it's not until the fourth month or something. So it's going to be like this for a while.

Lisa: And was this from the get-go that they were recommending that you triple feed, or when did you start that?

Lindsay: Oh, so sorry. Yeah, so initially they were like, all of the feedback they were giving me was to only breastfeed. I did get a lot, even though we did not follow this plan, I will say that having the consultations was really helpful because I learned what I should be looking for. I did successfully have a feeding session with him at the hospital with a consultant, so I really got to have the experience, so he did latch right after birth. Remember, I was in such a daze that I don't know how that worked. Plus they said that the hormones and stuff can make it, it's a little different, right? That first feed versus like later on. It's not as easy as it is the first time, so to speak. But yeah, I had another session where he latched fully for 45 minutes so I got to experience what that actually feels like, what are the different things I can do to help it along.

So that was really helpful. My other thing was, I, so it just was so hard to tell They had me like hand expressing they had me using a manual pump at one point they were like you can pump pump and Hand express into a spoon and feed him that, at this point he only needs three tablespoons, two or three, I don't remember which one it was.

I did this, it took like a good half hour to get half of a teaspoon or tablespoon, I don't even remember. Either way, if it was a teaspoon, if it was a tablespoon, it took a half hour to get half of that full, and then somehow there was like a jerky movement from the baby. Half of that spilled. Oh. And I was like, Oh no, my God, there's no way.

Like, how can I sustain this trial? This isn't sustainable, I'm supposed to do this, what, 12 times a day? Like for two hours hand express until I've produced enough colostrum to I don't know how, obviously there's other women, like there was a woman that was there that like in the lactation class, had the baby latched and was just like chilling

I was like, this is not happening for me. So that was like, that was very hard, even though they were very supportive. It was really rough because I also, another thing, I definitely was getting the baby blues. There was a moment when we were in a lactation class, because we went to a couple of them and I was having a really rough moment because I'm just tired, a lot of things have been going on. I'm in pain, and Gerard has been very wonderful throughout all of this. And then an unexpected thing that happened was that I got a little, I think, jealous of how much he was able to do. I've just spent nine months creating this baby. And now I feel like I am useless to this baby. Like I am supposed to be recovering. So I'm not the one that gets to change him yet, even though they're like, no, you're going to be feeding him. So like dad does this. And so yeah, now I'm like, cool. We're both doing that now, but at the time I was sort of like, okay, but he's not latching.

I'm not serving this need for him. So essentially I am providing him with nothing. Like I was useless. And like Gerard also, so I have less experience with babies than he does before this. And he kept getting fixated on, he thought I wasn't supporting his head enough, which I will admit, I was not doing the best job of, for the most part. But in this particular moment, I was like, when we were in this class, I was holding him in a way that one of the lactation consultants showed and I felt confident, I have a good position here, and it was like, the only thing that I had felt confident about so far, and he was like, make sure you support the head, you're not doing, that. I was like, no, I am, and he was like,no, you need to listen, and I was like, you don't think I can do anything right, and I start crying in this class. And like I'm really crying, not wailing but like tears and I'm like not able to slow them down. Also, interestingly enough, I had been struggling to like sweat, which kind of continued after, although now I'm exercising again a little bit, so it's gotten better.

Crying did help me break a sweat, but also I was like in the middle of this class there's other new moms here and none of them are freaking like crying during the lactation class. Of course, he was the only, I think there was one other male partner there. Everybody else had their mom or they were by themselves.

So maybe part of it is, that makes a bit of a difference. I don't know. There's men versus women.

So also what happened in between then, was that I had gotten weighed on the hospital bed. And they told me how much and I don't know if that was like a weird weighing device that can be off or if maybe I was like, that's how much fluid I had retained from how long I was on the epidural and also fentanyl, which is very likely.

And also, I guess, pushing for a long time inflates you a little bit more too. But like, essentially, I weighed the exact same amount that I had before I went into labor, like my weigh in a few days before.

And now I'm not alone in this I'm sure many women, but also certainly me, I will admit, I have said many times it's probably good that my child is not a girl because I worry about passing this along but I had a lot of preoccupation with like how much weight I was gaining and, a thing that people say to you throughout your entire pregnancy is don't worry. You're going to lose, you're going to lose it immediately. Like the baby weighs this much and then your fluids come out and like you lose all of that literally during delivery. And I was like, Ooh, how much did I lose from the baby coming out?

He was nine pounds, six so I'm like, I at least lost that. And then they give me the number and I, and it was, they gave it to me in kilograms. So I like did the conversion. I'm like, Ooh. And then I was like, Oh my God. So I started crying a lot. And then they came to do my blood pressure right after that.

And then my blood pressure was high because I think I was upset and they were like, Oh honey, you need to stop crying. Otherwise, like we have to keep you here because your blood pressure is really high. So all of this stuff happened right before we go into this class. And then he makes this comment and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm just this whale.

I can't even hold my baby, like all of this stuff. And then the consultant comes over afterwards after it's over, and she's like, I probably didn't help it because I was giving dad all these props. I guess I think at a point where I had, I had to leave, they kept, they had to pull me away for something.

And I guess during that, she was like, look at dad over here and all of the nice things that he's doing. So,and obviously I am very happy that this is who I procreated with. This guy that is, like, showing up for the baby and doing all the things and is doing a job.

This is objectively a very good thing. But in the moment, I just felt like this, incompetent whale of a person. So then of course, she's talking and very calming, she was also like, let's talk about, are you having any thoughts of hurting yourself? And of course, I'm a therapist, I'm like, no, I'm just, I just am a person who sometimes has the reaction of I cry a lot and know myself very well. And also it just very inconveniently just happened in a very public way. I think that, yeah, that's where, being at a hospital, you have all this support, but you also, again, like, how would I have reacted as an employee, and there's this patient that's crying uncontrollably in the class. I also would have, of course, you have to ask questions.

But as the person receiving it, I'm like, no, jeez. I'm not like, I don't need some big intervention right now. Like I just, all of these contexts are happening. So this is where eventually going home is really nice because you get to kind of just be in your own routine and space, feeling the way you need to feel, and my trust for myself started returning a little bit because there was less intervention.

Before I left, that same consultant that gave that class came to me with a revised plan that was more like, okay, cause He's not latching enough consistently and you need to feed your baby. It was a little bit more of a triple feeding plan that was geared towards building me up towards fully breastfeeding. that also involved pumping.

Now some of this we had to abandon. Even like in the beginning,I was like, I'm supposed to hand express and then feed him colostrum, and he was like, we need to feed this baby. Like we're giving him the formula. I was like, no, you're interrupting the journey.

But Also, that's not wrong. We did need to feed the baby.

And I, yeah, I think that, that's where, all of the intervention got confusing, But ultimately,you go home, and you start to kind of, pull from the different pieces, and you make an arrangement of the advice and guidance that is going to actually work for you and at the end of the day I'm grateful that I had all of that so that I could pull from that and put something together.

But yeah, where we're at now with all that I also worked with a lactation consultant virtually through my insurance who I had three sessions with so far and then I think next week I have another follow up.

It's been almost a month since the last time I saw her. And our focus has been more on pumping, with the idea of again, like maybe building up towards breastfeeding, but where I'm at now with it is that I also think I am now exhausted by hearing about how much goes into breastfeeding. It's a lot. I guess technically pumping is breastfeeding, so let me give myself credit that I am doing that. I am pumping every, I actually probably at some point soon need to do it. I think I'm overdue. But yeah, for the most part, like, every two to three hours, sometimes it goes a little longer based on whatever else is going on.

and focusing on trying to get my supply up because right now I don't produce as much as he eats. He's pretty big. He's, I'm sure, close to 12 pounds now because he's growing out of, but the last time when we did the one month follow up, and that was November 22nd, he was 11 pounds, 2 ounces. And yeah, since then he has grown out of certain clothes, so he's definitely bigger.

I'm excited for him to be the full 12 pounds because then we can use the carrier instead of, I like the wraps, but I think the carrier will be nice and, yeah, he'll qualify for that at that point. But yeah, this kid eats like 30 ounces a day, and I'm producing under 15. So one thing that also makes me nervous about breastfeeding, and I know that the more you do it, there's like a symbiotic relationship and it increases, but as of what I'm producing right now, it's not enough.

When he is breastfeeding, I can't tell fully how much he's getting, but I know that if I'm pumping and I'm getting at most, the most I've ever gotten from a pumping session is two ounces from each breast, like combined, right? And one produces more than the other. One produces like never more than the most one ounce at a time.

He eats four ounces each time he eats, so it would not be enough.

Lisa: And I'm sure you know this, but just for listeners, usually the baby is able to get more milk out of us than a pump can. So,

Lindsay: Oh yeah, my pump is weak and I'm going to try. This is interesting. So I got the Medela. It was recommended by a friend who used it maybe five years ago when she, five, six years ago.

I saw a TikTok from a lactation consultant recently that said, in the past year or so, it's been remodeled and that particular consultant said that other consultants feel this way too is that it's just not a good redesign and that it is a weaker motor. So I do plan on

Lisa: Thanks. Yes,

Lindsay: Spectra, which 2 friends are using And they really like I just haven't done it yet. I did feel relieved to hear that you can get it from Walmart for 200 and something because I was like is not gonna have to pay like 800 dollars because I, people are like try your insurance again. I'm like, hard to get the first pump through my insurance. This is the city's insurance for you.

Lisa: Yeah,

Lindsay: They don't want to pay for anything. So I'm not even going to go through the trouble of calling them and getting pissed off because

Lisa: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay: But luckily you can get from Walmart for less. So I am going to try that. And that might make a big difference.

Lisa: It could make a big difference. And then the flange size can also make a difference

Lindsay: That, oh yeah. I've already done that. So I,

Lisa: Great.

Lindsay: That's what's helpful about the lactation consultant, she was like, let's just see. Because I was like, I'm sure it's, it seems like the right size. And then she looked, she had originally been like, it comes with the standard 24 size and she was like, probably try 21s. And then she actually looked at my nipples and she was like 15. I was like, Whoa, that's like way off from

Lisa: Big difference.

Lindsay: So I did, yeah, that has made a difference. That happened a while ago. I forgot about it. So yeah. But what I will say is I think that I'm open, like if he starts more naturally going towards nursing like, I am open to doing that more with him, but I do feel like I'm not interested in really pushing it, if that makes sense. Like at point, Yeah, like it's hard to watch him be frustrated. It's really satisfying to feed him in a way where he's satisfied because it's a really nice, happy moment when he just looks cute and he's like, Oh, I'm not upset because my needs are being met.

It is also nice to have the ability for other people to help out with that. Also, it's very nice for Gerard, and honestly, my sister loves feeding him because it's a bonding moment for other people, his cousin, our roommate, she likes to feed him as well, so that also gives me a break, which is needed because of how time consuming pumping can be.

Pumping can feel a little bit like, okay, you feed my child while I go sit in a room, and pump my boobs. So it's like a little isolating sometimes, but at the same time it's very nice to have the help because there are definitely days when I'm here alone, like when Gerard is working and, I have to pump and feed him at the same time because it'll just line up that way and it's possible, but it's difficult because he will be fussy, especially like when it comes time to burp him and he will kick out the cords. And so, it's a little bit of chaos, but it is possible. But yeah, so now, like, when he does latch, it's like, nice bonding, and I'm glad that it happens sometimes. I know for some people it, like, doesn't happen ever, and that can be really hard. I think that it looks different for everybody and I am leaning into what it looks like for us.

I will sh*t talk formula a little bit. Formula smells terrible. Breast milk smells so good. Breast milk smells almost as good as the baby smelled when he came out of me.

I've had a little taste of it and it tastes good. Amazing. It's like this sweet, lovely substance. I don't even want to know what formula tastes like. It smells like, but. It smells like a butt.

Babies love it. Like he loves it. So no judgment to using it, but just like shit talking the actual substance. That's my target here.

Lisa: Thank you for the comedy show. That's funny. But I mean, also not funny cause you don't want to smell something that doesn't smell nice.

Lindsay: But, but also, like, at the same time, like, the important thing is, like, he eats it. Babies like formula, so there's nothing wrong with using formula.

Lisa: Oh, absolutely.

Lindsay: I'm just literally, if formula were a person, I am shit talking you. And just, you smell bad. You smell. Could you try some hygiene or something? I don't know.

Anyway, I guess earlier when you said to talk a little bit about parenting, like, this is the stuff I guess that's been going on is like figuring out what works in terms of feeding and a lot of that story starts before you give birth. People ask you all the time, are you going to breastfeed? And I said the whole time, because I know from just other people, I was like, I'm going to try, I want to experience that. I know there's a lot of benefits, but I also have known a lot of people that it just did not work for. Two of my cousins just never produced a lot of milk and stopped. so I was like, maybe there's something there. Like maybe it's like a genetic thing. Although my mom did breastfeed me, she is not around to talk to me about how because she passed away, unfortunately. But I know that she was able to and that she struggled with my sister who's older and was not able to there but then was able to with me. So, you know, who knows maybe like next time around like I'll Have enough know how in general, like maybe that's some of it too that so much was going on and it was all new thatI'm like learning and trying to incorporate all of the information. Maybe the second time around, I just know enough to be able to be like, and also including like in terms of like my recovery and stuff too, which, I haven't spoken much about it yet, but yeah, oh my God. I can't believe I really was like, I don't want to have a C section mostly because the recovery is significant.

Holy shit. The recovery from vaginal is insane. I am still recovering. Although I will say props to people who have it worse than me because they exist. Because I went into my six week appointment she was like, looks really good. And I was like, oh, because I am not comfortable.

But she was like, yeah, everything is, your incisions are healing.

There are people who get tears worse than I do. There's people who apparently have worse scarring. She was saying my scarring looks really good. So there's associations with how much pain you're going to experience, because if it's not healing as well, that's going to be worse. So I am like, totally on the luckier end of things.

And it is not, it is not easy.

Lisa: Yeah,

Lindsay: My God, the first two weeks, it was like, so much pain. It was hard to move. Anytime you sit up, just horrible. When you're on all the Motrin, I was using the padsicles, both ones from Frida Mom and also some ones that were homemade by Erika that I inherited.

Lisa: Aw!

Lindsay: Again, Erika. I actually just, I didn't use all of those and I just gave them to somebody on the Buy Nothing group in my neighborhood so they were passing along. So that's also how many she made that they were able to work through three people.

And I had split up the amount of them and given half of what she gave me to our friend who lives upstate that also gave birth six days before me.

Michelle, sorry, I haven't said much about Michelle for when she listens to this. She's also a very important part of this journey. It's just admittedly, Erika has done the most research and Javier actually, especially has done the most research. That's why she gets the most shoutouts, but both of us benefited from that.

and I'm very close with both of them. I lived with both of them for three years at a time, so it's actually been a really magical experience.

Lisa: That's really cool that y'all had babies so close together.

Lindsay: So yeah, that's pretty much, I'm sure there's other little funny anecdotes I could share, but that's. The main thing, um, yeah, vaginal birth is really, yeah, it's no joke. It's painful. The recovery is a lot. But, six weeks out, I definitely, the improvements are there.

I would say, in the past couple days, actually, I have noticed more relief. But before that, it was slow going,

And, yeah, now I have a more realistic idea because, again, this probably is just different for everyone, and this is just what it is for me and some of this is going to resonate with some people that have given birth, and other people have different experiences and it's a really humbling process.

This is something you asked at the beginning, what can I say to new parents, and what I will say is that I can tend to be a little OCD and was like, we will have a clean house. I used to sometimes privately judge parents who were like, I don't have time to clean.

I get it. We've had some time to clean, but that's because Gerard has, work schedule is not like a nine to, he's around, maybe a little bit more than other partners might be. His mom has also, she's been around more than thought she would be. She was living in Florida before, but has moved back and has come a couple days a week.

Everybody that comes over loves to hold him because he's really cute. So we have lucked out with support, and It is amazing how time consuming it is to do the really simple things required to take care of a baby.

At the end of the day, it is very simple. Feed them a bottle. Change the diaper. Pick them up. There's not many things that you're doing, actually, but it takes a lot of time. And energy. And that's why they make them cute. So that you can be like, Oh! Oh, what do you need? What do you need?

Lisa: Yes, totally.

Lindsay: I've read somewhere that cats actually model their meows after human babies.

Lisa: Really?

Lindsay: It's like a manipulation so that humans will take care of them and feed them. Cats are smart and maybe a little evil, but interestingly enough, I grew up with cats.

So when I hear him meowing, I'm like, Oh, the kitty cat needs something like the opposite. I'm sure that I would care regardless, but it's like this extra level of cute for me that he sounds like a little cat, like, he

Lisa: Oh, I love that.

Lindsay: Has a lot of love and he's very cute.

Lisa: Thank you so much, Lindsay.

Been a pleasure to hear details. I really appreciate taking the time.

Lindsay: Thank you, good to see you..

Lisa: You too. Bye.