Jewish doula and mental health therapist Chana Diamond returns to share her 2nd and 3rd babies’ birth stories. She shares the details of two more unmedicated, uncomplicated vaginal births in a hospital attended by the same midwife as her first. Her babies were born healthy, despite a bit of concern due to identifying the rare Kidd antibody for both her 2nd and 3rd pregnancies. Chana also reflects on and describes some of the meaningful Jewish customs and rituals she observed in her pregnancies. (If you missed her first birth story, you can find that in Episode 87.)
Resources:
Expecting Miracles: Finding Meaning and Spirituality in Pregnancy Through Judaism* - book
Expecting Miracles by Chana Weisberg*
Sponsor links:
Free “Pack for Your Best Birth” Packing List (with free mini-course option)
East River Doula Collective (find a doula, attend our free “Meet the Doulas” event)
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens and virtual)
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Episode Topics:
Postpartum journey after 1st, lots of family support, though not enough leave
Hand me downs from family
Joining Forest Hills mom groups on Google, in-person groups
Deciding to try for #2, spacing was ~2 years
Going back to Rochel (same midwife)
Stayed on meds and kept seeing therapist, continued mom group support
Rochel calls with some blood test results - JKA or KIDD antibody (very uncommon), came as result of 1st pregnancy from genes from husband Josh
This condition requires additional monitoring of titers, Rochel had to consult with MFM at NUMC hospital
Anticipating baby would be born with jaundice, the lowest risk thing that can happen with this antibody, but monitoring for the further complication potential for fluid on brain
MFM didn’t want her to go past 40 weeks
Weekly sonograms starting around 35 weeks
Due July 26; on a Monday evening, she went to midwife at 39 weeks +1 or 2 days, suggests sweeping membranes
Managing stress of going past 39 weeks with mindfulness
Woke up that night in the middle of the night with some cramps
Driving to work on Ward’s Island, stopping for coffee/donuts, still having some cramps, decides to take day off instead
Continuing to feel lower back cramps
Being in touch with her personal mentor/professor on Jewish customs in pregnancy/birth
Custom in early labor - having a lock & key as a ritual with a prayer for a safe labor/delivery
Baked challah (~8 loaves) with a friend, very spiritual in Jewish custom – take a piece - Segula challah - creating a circle of protection
Pulling out her birth ball around 9:30am
Calling Josh to come home
Wanted Gail to be her doula again, but she couldn’t guarantee being there
Asked her sisters to be doulas
Calls midwife, Josh books it home
When he gets home, Chana says she wants to go to hospital late morning
Car ride very uncomfortable
Get to hospital
Meeting provider Joanie, going to triage
Pelvic exam - fully dilated/effaced but not feeling urge to push
Water breaks, gets urge to push, son born in only ~3 pushes
Chana announces it’s a boy
Cord is a bit too short for him to come to her chest right away
Rochel comes in, sisters come in
Squat on triage bed with her sisters supporting her to deliver placenta
Her parents came
Baby had a little trouble breathing from the fast pushing stage, giving him oxygen
Had bris on day 8, beautiful ceremony at a synagogue in Queens
The month of Av - saddest Jewish holiday commemorating sad things in Jewish history, 9 days - the Bris happened during this time, which was one (allowed) happy thing they could do
Didn’t share name with anyone until the bris - Max Caleb (after Josh’s grandfather)
Postpartum was similar to Zoey’s
Placenta encapsulation
Max was jaundiced but didn’t need to do the phototherapy
3rd baby was a happy surprise
Max & Isaac are about 3 yrs & a few months apart
Going back to midwife Rochel again
JKA antibody tends to get more severe with every pregnancy, extra monitoring
Again told she wouldn’t go past 40 weeks due to the antibody
A little nauseous
Due Oct 16, being told at 38 wks + a few days MFM doesn’t want her to go past 39 weeks
Start planning induction, Rochel thinks she’ll just need a jumpstart of pitocin
Planning for induction within the next day or two
Putting the kids to bed, eating dinner, get in bed and feels a small gush that’s bloody show (around 10:30 or 11pm)
Wakes up with crampy discomfort
Max wakes up, she comforts him
Goes back to her room and bounces on ball, watches Friends
Texting mom for childcare
Texting Rochel
Going into shower, squatted and had a huge contraction
Gets out of shower, tells Josh it’s time to go to hospital
Mom not going to come in time, calling neighbor to come help with kids
Leaving for hospital around 2am, kneeling backwards in the minivan bucket seat
Telling herself, “I can do this, I can do this.”
Pulling up to NUMC same time as Rochel
Going straight to triage
Resident comes in to do a ultrasound
Water breaks, she has to push
Rochel encourages her to go on bed in hands and knees
Nurse announces prematurely that it’s a boy (Chana wanted to ID)
Born around 3:30am
Cord had a true knot without issue
Dad had been driving to drop mom off at her apartment, he came straight to hospital
Next day other family comes
Had another bris on day 8 for Isaac
He would get very fussy at breast during feeding, called a lactation consultant (Heidy Ramirez) - had a frenectomy to correct a lip and tongue tie
Reflections on kids meeting each other
Losing weight after pregnancies easily first two times, not 3rd
Back pain in 3rd pregnancy - seeing chiropractor
Took a break from attending births after Max (but had a full-time job)
Be gentle with yourself
3rd son’s full name is Isaac Daniel after Josh’s other grandfather
Expecting miracles - book on Jewish traditions/rituals for birth
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome back to my good friend and doula sister Chana. Hi.
Chana: Hi. It's so good to be here with you.
Lisa: Yeah, and I'm so glad. Listeners, if you have not heard Chana's first birth story, be sure to go back and listen to that. We're gonna pick up where we left off and she's gonna share more birth stories today, as well as maybe a little bit more of the postpartum journey, from the first time.
So, do you wanna just introduce yourself just in case people haven't gone back and listened to part one, go right ahead.
Chana: Sure. Hi everyone. My name is Chana Diamond. I'm a doula and lactation counselor and a therapist, social worker. I live on Long Island in Merrick with my family. Many years I lived in Forest Hills in Queens. That's where I was when I had all of my children.
Lisa: And where we met, I believe.
Chana: Yes. Many years ago.
Lisa: Maybe 11 years ago, 12 years ago, something along those lines, right? When we were both new doulas.
Chana: Yes. Oh my gosh. Many years ago. So glad to be here with you now, part of the East River Doula Collective.
Lisa: Just about to say that if you hadn't.
Chana: Yes. Yes.
Lisa: Well again, great to see you. So feel free to jump back in. We had to kind of abruptly stop last time because you had an appointment you had to get to, I think. So feel free to go on wherever we left off wherever you'd like to pick up in, in the postpartum journey after having your first baby.
Chana: Sure. So, while I had a really trying pregnancy in terms of my mental health with my first, I was really grateful I had a good postpartum experience. I mean, I don't wanna say it was great, it was definitely hard. But it was, truly, I felt really supported, and I felt really good.
My daughter was born in April, my mom came just as she did for my oldest sister who had children before me. She would come every day for about the first week to two weeks, early in the morning, my mom's real early, early riser. She always wakes up probably somewhere around 5:00 AM.
So she would come early in the morning. She would always come with the coffee in hand. And my mom really, always said she learned from her mom, that she would come and my job was to sit and hold the baby and she would do everything else. So she would do the laundry and she would do the dishes and make sure that I had something to eat.
And my husband was also home with me. I think he got like maybe two weeks off for paternity leave. Which at that time felt like a lot, I don't know. This is like predating all of the family leave, New York paid family leave stuff. So like my husband having two weeks off felt like enormous.
Oh, what a terrible state of things. I will say I worked for, at the time I worked full-time for the largest Health and Human Service Agency in New York and we received five days of maternity leave.
Lisa: Cue eye roll.
Chana: That was that exactly. I will never forget looking at that on my pay stub 35 hours.
So I could exhaust all of my sick and vacation time, which I had accrued quite a bit. So I think I wound up being able to take, I got six weeks of disability, but because we were a very large agency, we would get paid a fraction. I believe this is how they did, they would look at everyone's pay scale and it would be like an average. So I was paid like, a fraction of what my normal salary was. I wanna say that I had accrued maybe two months of vacation that I could exhaust. Yeah, I think it was two months. And then I wound up taking like a month of unpaid that we felt like I could manage. ‘Cause I was guaranteed my position back, even if I took some unpaid time.
Two months, that's quite a bit of accrued leave. Did yousave that intentionally, for a while? I worked for the same agency that my sister did. and I remember when I got the job, I started working in 2009. And I had my daughter in 2012.
Chana: So over that time, when I got the job in 2009, my sister said, I actually started working a month before I got married. She said, I know you're not thinking about having a baby, but start accruing your time now.
Lisa: Brilliant. That was really smart.
Chana: So I did. So, you know, I mean, how sad is it that from 2009, till 2012, I was accruing time for maternity leave.
Lisa: Did you, was it all work and no play whatsoever for three years? I didn't take any time, even through you know, having a really hard time feeling really depressed. I was really hard on myself about not taking sick time, not taking vacation days, because I knew I wouldn't get it. I worked up my plan all the time. I worked right up until the end.
You shouldn't have had to do that.
Chana: Yeah, it was awful. But I knew I would have about three months, so I was home and it was, I mean, it was good. It was manageable. My daughter didn't sleep. I didn't have a good sleeper at all. She contact napped all the time. That wasn't a term when I had her, but you know, now when I hear it, I'm like, oh yeah, that's exactly what she did.
Thankfully, breastfeeding went well. I didn't really have any struggles. I also come from a family where we were really well supported. My mom breastfed all of us, my sister breastfed as long as she could. And I felt very supported from my family in that regard. And my mother-in-law would come, I think once a week, those first few weeks, she would come all the way from New Jersey and she would, you know, super helpful everyone really.
I'm very lucky. I have a really supportive family. We didn't know what we were having in terms of boy or girl and Josh's brother and his wife who we're very close with, have three girls that are older, we have identical twin nieces. I remember, even before I was pregnant, my sister-in-law saying to me, I'm not telling you, I'm not pushing you in any direction, she said, but do you want me to save baby clothes for if and when you need? And I said, yeah, I love hand-me-downs, I don't wanna spend money on anything.
Chana: So sure enough, day four, five of being home from the hospital, my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law and my three nieces come to our apartment.
And I remember thinking my apartment exploded pink and purple because they had two of every outfit, one in pink and one in purple, 'cause that's what my nieces wore when they got gifts, when my nieces were born, you know, that's what it was.
So we were gifted so much clothes and things, thankfully really blessed in that regard. So postpartum was okay. I remember one day figuring out, oh, I have a, like I had the baby k'tan the wrap, you know, and I took it out and I figured out how to put her in it.
And it felt revolutionary because I could get up because my daughter never wanted to be put down. She only wanted to be held every time I would put her down, she started to cry. So once I figured out how to put her in the carrier, I felt like my life changed. I also lived in an apartment on the first floor, but it had three steps up and then another two steps onto, you know, like one of those, like you walk in and we had to go up to different wings.
Josh and I had this realization with the stroller. We were like, oh my God, how do we get it down the stairs? So that's when I started baby wearing, because I didn't know how to deal with stairs and the strollers. So much easier.
Chana: Yeah, so I wore her everywhere. Back then we had in Forest Hills, we had these Google groups for families when people had babies.
So it was divided up between for like six month increments. So I joined, I think from finding the link through the like Yahoo group back when that was a thing.
Lisa: I lived in Forest Hills, I think it was the Yahoo groups. And then we moved back to Astoria I think before the Google groups happened.
Chana: Yeah. I feel like I'm like really dating myself. Like Facebook groups were not a thing. So I joined this Google group and it was Forest Hills, January through June, 2012. And somebody posted let's meet up at Barnes and Noble on Austin Street
Lisa: Long gone.
And Zoe was three weeks old and I put her in the carrier.
Chana: And I walked there and I remember it was a rainy day and I put her in the carrier and I walked to Barnes and Noble and I met these other moms and we sat for hours and hours in Barnes and Noble. And I remember looking at the people who had babies in January. And I was like, oh my God, their babies like are awake for longer than 15 minutes.
And they like, actually look at them and make eye contact and do things. It was really exciting, but actually, it's like amazing to say, I could cry that I met like my friends that are still my friends now.
Lisa: Oh, that's awesome.
It's like that really became my support system. There are three women that I met in a text group that are still my friends today. Like we were literally just texting earlier. We're planning a vacation together.
Lisa: Ah, that's awesome.
Chana: For our like belated ten-year anniversary, but really that's why any clients that I work with, any people that I meet, anyone who I talk to finding those people who are in it with you in that moment, is the most important thing.
And I think that's why, like me as a therapist, leading postpartum support groups is some of the most meaningful work that I can do. Because having people who know exactly how you're feeling in that moment is unlike anything else. And my friends now, we joke that they met me and they didn't even know Zoe existed because she stayed in the carrier the whole time, like a little, I remember actually walking on a Barnes and Noble and being like, oh my gosh, I've just leaked through my shirt because she was so sound asleep.
I didn't take her out to nurse or anything. But I had the best time, like hearing other people talk about what you are experiencing is so validating. So my group met regularly, I think it was on Tuesdays. We met every week and we became this huge group. It was so awesome. And it was cool because this was in April and so it extended through babies born in June.
Chana: And then we would add on the next round also with sometimes join us with their, little itty bitty babies. And it was nice, we would meet out in the park, we would all bring blankets. We would like literally sit for hours. It was support around sleep and breastfeeding and bottles and relationships and all this kind of stuff. And what are you doing for daycare? And who's going back to work and all of this kind of stuff. Just like knowing that you weren't the only one who like couldn't get your baby to sleep off of you and you know, all those kinds of things.
So, that really made my postpartum experience. It was hard, she didn't sleep, nursing was hard going back to work and pumping was awful. And it worked for me. That's in a situation where I, you know, like on paper didn't really have any issues, but it was still really hard.
I really beat myself up over not wanting to supplement. I don't know why, but I did. I wound up pumping for a year. And that, I kind of said in my mind, that was the goal that I wanted to reach. And then, you know, we would start on like cow's milk and it would be okay. I reached the goal, I did it, but I remember thinking to myself, I wanted to throw the pump out the window, take a hammer to it. It was awful. I didn't, 'cause I also knew I wanted to use it if I, you know, if I had a second baby.That was before insurance would pay for your pump. So I was like, I'm gonna keep this pump.
But I also told myself, I will never do this again. Like I will not kill myself over the pump, I knew I wanted to reach that goal and then I knew I wanted to do it different.So I, I remember one of the first moms from our playgroup being pregnant, I think that her kids wound up being like, I don't know, less than 18 months, you know, that close 15, 16 months apart. And when I learned that she was pregnant, it was like terrifying. And people said a lot of oh, you'll know you're ready.
I always knew I wanted more than one. You know, I grew up with sisters, my husband had a brother, siblings were important to us. So I always knew I wanted more than one. My mom always said, 'cause me and my sisters were each 26 months apart. So we're like relatively close.
It was a lot, it was like three girls, you know, four, two babies, at the time. And people ask my mom, how did you do it? Like now, especially like with a baby, I would be like, mom, what did you do with us? How did you deal with having more than one?
And her answer is always, it was a blur. I don't remember. And in like a really strange way that felt like the way to go. Like I was like, I think I don't wanna remember. I mean, I love having memories, but getting a baby to sleep is, was never, I could never just be in the moment, enjoy like, this is the time when like, you know, me nursing her to sleep is the only thing she needs.
I was like, no, I have like dishes to do, and I have work tomorrow. I wanna go to bed. I wanna watch my show. It was never something that I could be really good at enjoying. So the thought of just dealing with the chaos and the intensity of having little kids felt like the way that I wanted to approach it.
And I don't know, Josh was kind of like, whatever, you're the one carrying the baby, you're giving birth, you're doing it. Like you, you follow my lead. So which is interesting, 'cause he and his brother are five years apart. Yeah. I don't know. He didn't really care either way.
So when I heard my friend was pregnant, that felt like crazy. So I was like, okay, you're not ready yet. And then I heard other people say like, when they start to walk, you can kind of see it a little bit more. And that did resonate. Once Zoey walked, I think she walked at maybe like 14 months or so, and I didn't have to physically carry her so much, it felt like, oh, okay, I could see how people do this again. Something about like when you have to move a child from one room to the next or, you know, like even it felt like, so crazy.
Lisa: Sure you only have so many arms, but yeah. That makes sense to me.
2nd Birth Story
Chana: Yeah. It felt crazy. So we decided we would try again, I honestly don't remember the conversation. I think we were both just okay, I think we're ready. Let's go for it. Thankfully I got pregnant pretty quickly.
I never like really tracked ovulation. And I just, we really tried like maybe a couple times, thankfully, it was easy. So I got pregnant and I don't remember much from the early pregnancy, I was nauseous, which I never was with Zoe.
I was never nauseous with Zoe. And I was super nauseous when I was pregnant. And I remember one time having to pull over when I was driving her to school to throw up. And that was like, oh my God, I couldn't believe that people have to deal with nausea like that. Thankfully it ended after the first trimester I went right back to Rochel with Southshore midwives, saw her throughout and it was great.
And I had a pretty easy pregnancy. I stayed on my medication. I stayed seeing my therapist. Having my friends and my group was so helpful. I had one of my close girlfriends, she had a second a little bit before me, so that was really helpful. And I think that things that, you know, when people say that you're so busy, you don't even realize, you know with the second, that's really how it felt. All of a sudden I was 20 weeks. Josh would come with me to every appointment with Zoe, like every appointment with Rochel he would come and like through, you know, like the 20-week sono and all of that, and I remember scheduling the 20-week sono for like some random morning that I could go and he wasn't there, it was just like, whenever you could get it done.
Lisa: For those who haven't listened, Zoe is the first baby.
Chana: Oh yeah.
Lisa: For clarity there.
Chana: Yeah. So, the only kind of, I don't wanna say like glitch or like thing that came up was that, I don't remember, maybe it was like around 20 weeks, I got a call from Rochel and she said, that they had run my blood work, I think that she had wound up running it a little bit late, and that they found this, and I'm gonna do a very bad job of describing it because I still don't understand exactly what it is because I do not have a science brain. And that's why I will never be going to midwifery school, among other reasons.
So we'll look together and maybe find some explanation to link in the show notes. Apparently I developed what's called the JKA, or KID, K I D antibody, it came as a result of being pregnant with Zoe because it's something that came from Josh.
So because Zoe has half of Josh's genetic makeup, it was something that he carries that then developed in me. And now I have this antibody, which required further monitoring. I had to go and have my blood checked several times, to check my titers. That's what they were looking for.
And the risk was, there was like a wide range of risk, I did have to be Rochel did have to consult with maternal fetal medicine at NUMC, which is the hospital. And I did have to have several meetings. He's no longer there, but he was a fantastic doctor, named Dr. Hong. And he was amazing and so supportive of midwifery care, like really did everything he could to be like, you are gonna stay with Rochel, I'm just here to consult. 'cause I started to get nervous, is this gonna mess up my plans to do things with Rochel and the midwives as much as I could. So what I was explained was they would continue monitoring, they anticipated that he would be born jaundiced. Which was like the normal, low risk ish thing for this JKA antibody, but they would have to continue monitoring throughout till the end of pregnancy in case he developed any like fluid on the brain. I'm saying he, I didn't know that it was a boy, any fluid on the brain or anything like that. So I, you know, it was kind of crazy Rochel when she told me she was like, Chana, I literally had to open a textbook, I didn't know what this was. It's so uncommon. They were surprised when they saw it come back because with my last pregnancy and up until then everything had been so super normal. So, I mean, I wasn't that concerned, I felt really well cared for when I met with Dr. Hong, he like really explained, like everything would be fine. They also, he really didn't want me going past 40 weeks, because he explained that anything that's happening on the inside, like they only have a limited amount of information around what's happening on the inside at that point, like throughout the pregnancy.
So if they felt like, you know, baby's 40 weeks, they'd rather be able to know what's going on with baby on the outside. So they were really confident because I gave birth at 39 weeks. So they were like, you're probably not gonna go until 40 weeks. I mean, whatever. I don't know how, if they were just telling me that to like, make me feel better.
Lisa: You're saying with your first pregnancy, you went to 39.
Chana: They were like, you had the baby naturally at 39 weeks, so we are not anticipating you like going well past your due date, so it should be fine.
So I was like, okay. So the only thing that was really disruptive was that I think at 35 weeks I had to go for weekly sonograms.
And that got super annoying cause I had to go to the hospital to do them in the clinic. And they couldn't give me an appointment. It was like, you know, we do sonograms between the hours of blah, blah, blah. And I had to always wait and talk to Dr. Hong. That got a little annoying.
Chana: There were a couple times when I had to bring Zoe with me, it wasn't pleasant. But you know, all in all, it was fine. and Dr. Hong was like great and supportive and would be like, looks great, you're good, you know, see you next week. I remember one time him looking on his sono, we, again, chose to be surprised, and so every time I would be like, don't tell me, don't tell me the sex of the baby. And in their minds, they're like, we can't see anything. This is a you know, like a 37 week baby. You know, they get so big at that point.
But I remember Dr. Hong once at one point looking at the sono and he went, oh my God, look at those cheeks.
And it did. And now when I think back I'm like, he really did have that face inside. Like it's the same face. Yeah, so I was due in July. I was due July 26th. So it was really hot.
Chana: It was a Monday afternoon and we were out at the playground, in the evening. I remember, and I remember seeing my friend, my girlfriend, and I was super pregnant and I had an appointment with Rochel that night, on that Monday night. And I went and I think she asked me do you want me to sweep your membranes?
I remember when I got to 39 weeks pregnant with him feeling like, why am I still pregnant? Like I had Zoe at 39 weeks, I should, like you go earlier with your second, and I was like, what the hell's going on? I should have had this baby already.
So I had to practice like a lot of mindfulness. I do remember having to tell myself I will have this baby, and it's okay that I'm going past where I went with my first. And I did a lot of talking to the baby, like while I was in the shower of like, whenever you're ready, you'll figure it out.
Chana: You know, I'd love for you to come. I'm ready.
But that was really hard for me that I went past 39 weeks. So I think I was like, on that Monday, I was like 39 and like one or two, I guess. And Rochel said, do you want me to do a sweep? And I said, you know, I'm okay.
If next appointment I'm still pregnant, then let's do it. And she was like, okay. We didn't check or anything. I never had any cervical exams leading up. I never knew if I dilated early or anything. And so that was Monday night, got home and I went to sleep and I actually just this morning read over the birth story 'cause there's so obviously so many things that like you forget.
But I read over it and I had forgotten that I did wake up in the middle of the night that Monday night, I guess it was like Tuesday at this point I woke up in the middle of the night with some like cramps, like back pain type thing. And I thought to myself like, oh, maybe this is early labor. This feels like how it felt last time.
Chana: And then I had to go sit by Zoe for a little bit, like 'cause she had woken up. And then I remember I came back and I like finished packing my hospital bag 'cause I had made sure to pack the bag cause we hadn't packed it the first time. So I was like, I'm gonna pack this hospital bag. And be really prepared.
And then it subsided and it was fine, and I went back to sleep. And then Tuesday morning I woke up and it was normal. Normal morning. Got Zoe dressed, got me dressed, was headed to work for the day. So I dropped Zoe at daycare. And I remember that I guess I was carrying her in, she was like two and I was carrying her in and the teacher, one of the teachers, there was like, you have to stop carrying her.
You won't be able to carry her much longer. And I was like, you're right. And then she said to me, something like when are you gonna have the baby? And I was like, I dunno, any day. So I left. And my birth story reminded me that I stopped for coffee and a donut because donuts are always my pregnancy treat.
I love donuts. So I treated myself to as many donuts as I wanted.
Lisa: A pregnant couple in class last night brought Greek donuts for everybody. One set with Nutella and one set with honey. I don't think I had Greek donuts before. They were so good. Have you ever had one?
Chana: Oh my God. No, that sounds amazing.
Now when I visit clients in Astoria, I know exactly what I'm gonna go get.
Chana: Sounds so good. Yeah, so I treated myself to a donut and at the time and for many years I worked on Wards Island, which is connected to Randall's Island. So I would always stop at like the Dunkin Donuts off the Grand Central, right by LaGuardia.
That was like my place. The girls knew me. So I would sat there and then drive onto the island and I remember driving onto the Island and like getting on. And starting to feel like crampiness like real discomfort in my back and being like, oh my God, if I have to deal with this all day sitting at my desk, I'm gonna be miserable.
I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna email my supervisor and say I'm taking the day. And if it subsides, I can always come in and be in by 10 o'clock. And I wouldn't even have to use the day and my supervisor who was the same supervisor as she was like, so understanding didn't care if working remotely was a thing, she would've let me do it, but it wasn't a thing then.
So I pulled over, emailed my supervisor, I'm gonna take the day and drove. And just turned around, drove off the island. By the time I got home parked, I walked inside, I was still feeling like lower back crampy. And when I was pregnant with my first, I had studied with a very dear teacher of mine, who was when we were in college, we were very connected to the Jewish life on campus.
And so there's a rabbi and his wife and his wife, her name's Rivky Slonim, she's a real scholar in terms of like women and Torah and what we call like family purity, which is like when women go to the Mikvah and do things around like purity in terms of sex life, and things like that.
Chana: I'm not explaining it well, 'cause it's hard without getting deep into all of the rules and regulations, but there's also a lot of customs around being pregnant and safeguarding for a safe pregnancy, and things you can do and what to prepare for.
So, I mean I consider myself pretty spiritual, and I loved that. I had studied with her in college about a lot of this stuff before it was at all personally meaningful. And then when I was pregnant, I studied again with Rivky would like do the phone sessions, reviewing all of this stuff and what to do.
And one of the things, one of the customs that some people include and that I always felt really connected with, was the custom of in early labor, like when you first feel yourself going into labor, having a lock and a key and putting the key in and unlocking it, and kind of saying a personal prayer for a safe, healthy labor and delivery.
Lisa: That is so cool.
Chana: So yeah, I had it, I think I did it with Zoe. I don't remember, but I remember having the lock and the key and I like kept it in a safe place. And when I got home from work and I was getting myself together, And knew that things were brewing.
I took the lock and the key and I unlocked it and I said my personal prayer may this be like safe and healthy and me and the baby should be okay.
Lisa: Can I ask, this is such a silly nitpicky question, but I'm envisioning like, is it a special lock and key? Is it just any lock and key?
Chana: No, it's just I literally went to the hardware store. And it's just like a small, like that when you turn the key, it like pops open. Yeah. Like you would use on luggage or something.
Lisa: Okay. I wasn't sure if it needed to be something ornate, antique.
Chana: It could be anything, it could truly be anything. So I had that lock and key. Something else that I did beforehand was when I was pregnant with Zoe, I actually, towards the end of my pregnancy, I think I was like 30, 37 weeks pregnant. I baked challah with a friend of mine, and baking challah it's a very spiritual thing. I actually have challah rising right now that I have to bake later, before you braid the challah you do what's called, taking challah where you take a piece and the reason we do that is for like, when we used to make sacrifices in the temple, but like it's a very special time where you can really make special prayers and say special blessings for people in need, especially people who are trying to be pregnant or people who are ill, or anything like that. So I baked challah again when I was towards the end of my pregnancy with this one, I called it, I wound up doing it again with the third. I would always call it then when I would bake it.
Chana: When I bake challah I used like the five pounds of flour. So I usually get eight, like big challahs so it lasts for a while. So I always called it my segula challah. We have the term in Judaism that when you make a segula it's like, segul means, like a circle, but to go around, so it's like making a perimeter. So it's like a safeguard. So like, I would always when I would get to the end of my segula challahs, like they were like my special ones, I made them while I was pregnant, they had my extra special spiritual connection blessings.
Lisa: I love that.
Chana: So, I baked my challah, I got home, I unlocked my lock and key and then I was like, you know what I'm gonna sit on the, I'm gonna get the ball.
So my ball was like very deep in the back of a closet, probably like in my doula bag. So I got out the chair and I'm like climbing and I'm like rummaging through. And I remember thinking in my head, if I'm not in labor, this is gonna put me into labor. As I'm like blowing up the ball, doing all this stuff.
I finally blow up the ball. And it's still early, it's probably I don't know 9:30 in the morning. And I'm bouncing on the ball. And I was starting to feel things more intensely. So I think that was when I called Josh. And I said like, I think things are picking up, You might wanna head home.
And I actually was just talking with him and he goes, you got mad at me when I said I'll leave in five minutes. That I was like, no, you don't have five minutes.
Lisa: Right now, please.
Leave. So, Five minutes, you know, doesn't seem like long to him.
Chana: Right. And he probably was saying sure, let me like close my computer. And I was like, don't leave in five minutes. So I had planned for, my sisters were gonna be my doulas. Gail was probably like the third person that I told that I was pregnant, and I asked her if she would be my doula.
Summertime is super busy for Gail, which I knew because her husband's a teacher, so they usually have vacations plans and things like that. So she was like I can't guarantee that I'll be there. And I was like, don't worry, I know you will be there with me in spirit. Like, you know, it's fine.
But I asked both my sisters that they would be there with me 'cause I felt like they are not trained doulas, but they could be the support that I needed. So they were like, sure.
Lisa: And remind me, had they all given birth before you?
Chana: My oldest sister had, my middle sister had not yet.
Lisa: Okay.
Chana: So. Josh was coming home and I was bouncing on the ball and I think I texted my sisters, I think something's happening, but I'm not really sure because I was still in that mindset of I don't know, maybe this is it, but you know, it was it. So, and I think I also texted Rochel and she was like, okay, sounds good. So things really started to pick up. At one point I got off the ball and I think that I called, I read him that I had written down.
Chana: I called Josh to be like, you better be on your way. And in my head, if it went to voicemail, that meant he was on the subway and I was gonna be really mad. Like, I can't, I cannot believe this, but he picked up and he was like huffing and puffing. And he was like, oh, just got outta a cab. I'll be there in a second.
And I was like, okay. And I felt like phew, like he knew to take a cab.
Lisa: Don't take your time, sir. Not when she was mad about five minutes.
Chana: Right. you imagine,
Lisa: yeah.
Chana: If he was like, oh, I got stuck on the E train.
Lisa: Wise man.
Chana: Right. So he came in and by that time I was like deep in labor. We had this like tall tower fan and I was like, just leaning over the tower fan.
It was also July. So I was so uncomfortable. And I think I said to Josh I wanna go to the hospital. I don't wanna do this in the car if it gets worse. He was like, okay, so he called Rochel, told her we were gonna head to the hospital, and told my sisters we were heading to the hospital.
I remember walking out of my apartment and it being so strange that it was like daylight. And I was seeing people, I was like, I'm in labor. How is this happening? They're just going for an afternoon walk. I think it was probably around 10:30, 11 by this point.
So we drove to the hospital and it was really awful and uncomfortable. I sat crouched in the back, like gripping onto the handle and the back seat, the front seat headrest. It was again like a lot of back labor, no tightening back to front or anything like that.
I didn't feel anything in the front. I just felt it in the back. I do remember feeling the baby move, which I hadn't felt with Zoe. I remember feeling like that was strange, 'cause I hadn't felt like movement during labor. Now I understand that some people feel movement, other times babies are like super calm and quiet, just interesting that it could be so different.
We got to the hospital, I remember Josh thought he was gonna drop me and go park. And I was like, what the f*** is wrong with you? Carry the bag. I can't go in by myself, I'm like in the throes of labor. So we walked in, and the first elevator came and it was super crowded and it, all of a sudden said it's going down.
Chana: And I was like, no, get me out. The elevator opened, got off. I had to wait for the second one. Went up to the third floor, I guess Rochel had told Josh, if you get there before me, ask for Joanie, who's a midwife who was on staff. She worked with Rochel in the practice as like backup, but she was also on staff at NUMC. So we walked into the third floor, walked through L and D. There was like nurses just waiting at the nurse's station. And we said, I'm in labor, we're here for Joanie. Joanie was like, hi, I'm here. She said, let's go into triage. So I think they asked me, can you get up on the table?
So I got up on the table and she said you know, I'm just gonna check you. I said, okay. I think I read that they did a blood draw or they tried to do a blood draw. I don't remember if they actually did it. I got up on the table and Jonie checked me and she said you're fully, do you feel like you have to push?
Chana: I said, no. And then my water broke, it was like a huge pop and my water broke. I remember seeing, I think I splashed people. I think I just splashed those two nurses.
Lisa: I'm coming to entertain you.
Chana: Right. Was like way to be dramatic. So my water broke. And I think at that point, Joanie had walked out to the nurse's station again, my water broke and then I said, I have to push.
So she came running back and I pushed maybe three times and he was born. And I said, it was funny, I didn't remember this, but I reread in the birth story that after the first push, I said to Joan, I wanna announce the sex. Like I wanted to make sure that she knew that cause I wanna do it the same way.
Chana: And she said, okay. So after, another couple pushes, he came out and I said, it's a boy. And I was really surprised 'cause I like never imagined having a boy. And he had a short cord, so she said you can have him on your stomach, but don't pull him any further 'cause the cord was short.
I said, okay. and I think at that point, I was literally in triage, the first bed in, so the door was like wide open, like to the nurses station. It's funny. Every time I go, I've been to a couple of births there since. Every time I just kind of go and stand by that door, I can't believe that happened.
Lisa: That's wild.
Chana: I've texted my family pictures. I'm like, guys, this is the scene. And I think at that point, like Rochel came in and then my sisters came in like right behind her. But I was just like holding this baby on my stomach, like cord still attached and everything. And it was just wild, I remember just thinking this is crazy, like that just happened so quickly. Like just a couple seconds. Then they said, the cord is short, it finished doing its thing. And they were like, let's do it. So they cut the cord and then Josh held the baby.
And then Rochel said let's get the placenta out. So she literally had me like, like squat on the triage bed. It was like one of those triage beds, not a hospital that is like a skinny little plastic thing. She was like, just stand up and squat. And she said to my sisters, like each of you hold an arm and she just put like a basin underneath me.
Chana: And she was like, just push and I pushed and out came the placenta.
Lisa: Cool.
Chana: And that was it. So I always joke that Rochel was there for half the birth 'cause she did the placenta. And then I just sat there with the baby, like holding the baby. My sisters were there, we called my mom and told, you know, and we were like, he's here.
And they were like, what? My identical twin nieces were leaving for their first summer at sleepaway camp that morning, so I knew my sister-in-law was like dealing with that. And like in tears, they were going there the first time so that we were able to be like, I had the baby.
So she was so excited. I don't remember if she was able to tell them before they left that I had the baby, I'll have to ask them, it's so funny. But I'll always remember, that was their first time going to camp, on that day. So then my parents came, when he came out, he had a little bit of trouble breathing.
I think they said, because it was like so fast that he didn't get all of that compression through the birth canal. Yeah. So he had a little bit of trouble breathing. So they gave me like this little like oxygen hose to just hold by his nose to make sure that he was getting oxygen.
So I was like supposed to be doing that. It was great. I remember I was able to get up and go to the bathroom. Which felt really good. My sisters were there, eventually my parents came and my sisters had gotten these like matching t-shirts to wear to the birth and everything and they like, eventually when I'm sitting there holding the baby and we're all laughing and joking, I was like, you jerks had time to coordinate your outfits and missed my birth because of it.
Lisa: That is hilarious.
Chana: It was, they had gotten me one too. So it was okay.
Lisa: Well, I hope you'll send pictures if you have any of the t-shirts and maybe the lock and key too, that I can include on the show notes.
Chana: Of course.
And then, we were in the hospital for a little bit, got home, and we had a bris for him eight days later, which was new because we hadn't had, we had a naming for Zoe, which was really special, but it was, it's a little bit more low key. A bris is big. And also, this was the first boy on Josh's side.
So he has three nieces, and then we had Zoe, and so this was the first boy. It was my in-law's first grandson. It was a really big, special deal. We had a really beautiful bris. Josh's uncle is a Rabbi at a synagogue in Queens. So we had it there, which felt really good.
We had Zoe's naming there as well. So it felt really nice. It just felt like we were like in the family zone. We had, thankfully so many people came to celebrate with us. It was really special. It was actually, it's actually starting right now is a time that like in Judaism we call the 9th days, which is so like the saddest day of the year is a holiday.
It's the 9th of Av, the month of Av which is when we commemorate the destruction of both temples, but also a lot of other, just like really awful difficult times in Jewish history. So we mark times leading up to that day, the 9th of Av. So we have the nine days, which is like when the month of Av starts.
Chana: So actually it's starting, I think today is when it starts, there are a lot of things that are like prohibited during that time. You're not supposed to just do things for fun, you're not supposed to go to concerts, live music, go to movies, things like that.
Lisa: And just to comment, we're recording this on July 29th. For listeners, 'cause it won't air today, of course.
Chana: Right. Yes, absolutely. So it happens in the summertime always. So, the bris was during the nine days. So it's always nice to have a reason during the nine days to have like a happy occasion. And we actually had to have, we always, we joke in my family because you're not supposed to drink wine.
So some people go back and forth, whether you can for a special occasion have wine. So instead of during the bris ceremony, you do make kiddush, which is when you like sanctify using wine. And instead of having an adult drink it, we had the mohel and my dad also who officiated at the bris, had my nephew, who at that time was, I don't know, maybe all of eight or nine, have a tiny sip of the wine.
So we always would joke, it was like, Owen's claim to fame, because Max's bris during the nine days, he got to have a sip of wine. But it was really special. We didn't share the name with anyone until we had the bris. And we named him Max Caleb and Hebrew he's Mordechai Moshe.
And we knew that he would be Max if he was a boy always. Max was Josh's paternal grandfather who passed away when he was pretty young. But everyone in the family, I think my nieces, if any of them would've been boys, they would've been Max as well. So his full name was Max Diamond.
Chana: So it's very special that we got to have a Max Diamond again in the family. And, Josh shared with me some memories that he had of his grandfather, that he was a very committed Jew, always made it to synagogue, felt that was very important. So, yeah, so we were really excited to name him Max.
It was a really nice time. And I remember having a really good time. My friends were able to come to the bris. It was, I think that 'cause it was summertime, people were a little bit more lax with their schedule. So we had all of these people there. It was really special. And then I got home and I felt I was hit by a bus.
Lisa: I bet. I was just thinking about that. Although I was thinking it's kind of nice that this was your second time around given we usually heal a bit faster, bounce back a little faster than we do the first time. So do you think, I don't know, but still I'm sure it's exhausting still. Just like on day eight after giving birth, my goodness.
Chana: Yeah. Like during I was feeling okay. I think, cause I was feeling good, you know, with the hormones. But then I remember like getting home and crashing. And so I, if I ever work with a family who is anticipating having a Bris or some kind of like big to do afterwards. I talk with them about that. Just be super gentle. I think for a lot of people, not that COVID has been good in any regard, but kind of the idea of having smaller gatherings or doing things virtually not doing that for a lot of people, especially in the Jewish community, having this big bris so immediately after is really overwhelming.
So I was able to go home and really just take it easy. That was my second birth we tell Max, I say that, Zoe was a mermaid 'cause she came in the water and I tell Max that he came like an ambulance cause he came so fast.
Chana: That's what he knows. And my postpartum time was very similar to Zoe's like it was, I think he was a little bit better of a sleeper because Zoe was so terrible. So I remember like eventually when I got to the point of being able to take her to daycare, I would drive her to daycare, that I was always in such shock that he was calm in the car.
We had like 10, 15 minute drive to daycare. And Zoe, when she was in the car, she was either screaming or sleeping. There was no in between.
So I remember with Max, being like, oh my gosh, this 10 minute drive every morning is gonna be awful. And he would just stare out the window.
And I was like, oh my gosh, babies can do this.
Lisa: So different from one child to the next.
Chana: So different. I had my placenta encapsulated again.
I wound up using, did you ever know her? She isn't in NYC [anymore]. Her name's Amethyst.
Lisa: Yes. Yep. We did a training or two together.
Chana: She was like just such a special, kind person.
I remember, I wanna say Josh brought her the placenta. I think that's what it was. He brought her the placenta and then I think she delivered it. I remember having her in the apartment and she was like, so kind and so sweet and so supportive. And she told me that she got the most chill vibes from this placenta.
Lisa: Ha. How interesting.
Chana: I am really not that kind of person. I mean, you know me, Lisa, like I'm pretty realistic. I'm pretty down to earth, like I'm not...
Lisa: Spiritual in other ways, not that woo way.
Chana: Woo. Woo. Doula in that regard. But I tell you, he is a chill guy, like to this day, he gets upset like a normal now eight year old, but he was a chill baby.
He was like a really relaxed guy. So I really, I always remember Amethyst saying that she just got these real chill vibes from his placenta.
Lisa: That's so cool. Do you happen to remember, especially given you did it the first and second times, maybe third as well. What was the procedure? Was it pretty easy for you to get your placenta from your hospital? Or what did that look like? If you recall?
Chana: Yeah. My midwife knew. So, she would say, after I gave birth to the placenta, she would say we're keeping the placenta, they would put it in a container and put it on ice and it would go to postpartum or I maybe it would stay in L and D I just remember each time having to swing by L and D to retrieve the placenta before we left.
So it was pretty easy. I mean, I didn't have any issues that they would like wanna send it to pathologists. But yeah, I remember having to go by and wait a little bit and be like, I'm waiting for my placenta. They said, you know, they said they have it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but just having to be really clear and direct about it.
Lisa: And the other question is regarding the antibody issue, was there an issue with jaundice or were there any issues?
Chana: Oh yeah. Good call. Yes, he was jaundiced. He didn't need the light therapy. They discharged us. They did say he was jaundiced. They were concerned with his numbers. But we knew that he was gonna be jaundiced. So they discharged us and had us come back the following day to the NUMC clinic so they could check him.
So we did that and his numbers were getting better. It was really annoying to have to go back to the clinic 'cause we had to drive back to the hospital and we had to bring Zoe, 'cause I couldn't drive. I had to go because I was nursing. So we all, like all four of us had to go. It was super annoying.
Chana: So, they really encouraged us to bring him back the following day or like in two days and actually Josh really didn't want to. He felt like it was overkill. And he was really confident that things were getting better because his numbers were going down. So he was like, no, we're not going back.
We're gonna follow up with our pediatrician. And he called the pediatrician and asked them and gave them the numbers and everything. I do remember going to Quest in the neighborhood and doing another blood draw for him. I just remember 'cause it was like really awful to be there with a teeny tiny baby and them having to be who is the best phlebotomist for this situation?
Lisa: Yeah,
Chana: But they did it there, and thankfully between Josh and our pediatrician also, was in communication with the clinic at NUMC and was like, nope, this baby's under my care. It's totally fine. So that was good. And I just you know, nursed, nursed, nursed, nursed, nursed, nursed, and he was fine in the end.
Lisa: I was gonna bring that up that you knew as a doula to be nursing as frequently as possible. Not only just because that's just healthy in general, but to get rid of that bilirubin.
Chana: Yeah. And within a week he was fine. Yeah, thankfully. So, yeah, I think that's all of the pieces, of that story.
3rd Birth Story
Lisa: Wonderful. Well, do you want to go ahead and share your third today? Or do you want to schedule another time for that?
Lisa: Be three episodes.
Chana: Oh Gosh. It's like a lot of Chana.
Lisa: I love it. More Chana, please.
Chana: You know what, let's do his, it's not, you know, that poor third baby doesn't get that much attention.
Lisa: Yeah. Understood.
Chana: He was a surprise, not as planned as the others. But, we were very excited. So Zoe and Max are two and a couple of months apart. Max and Isaac are about three and a couple of months apart. So, Isaac was a bit of a surprise, but a welcome one.
Chana : It was exciting. And I always knew I wanted to have three kids. I was terrified, like, how the hell am I gonna do this? But excited, 'cause three felt like a really good number.
Lisa: And were you still in Forest Hills at this point?
Chana: Yeah, we were still in Forest Hills, I'm trying to think, we were in a new apartment where we had a little bit more space, which was nice.
So we felt okay about it. And again, it was one of those, didn't even realize as time went by. Zoe was 4 turning 5 at that time. And Max was two turning three. It was crazy, just always, I remember, Zoe's pre-K graduation and thinking about kindergarten and all of that stuff that like the day to day gets ahead of you and you don't even realize, I was, you know, back with Rochel through this pregnancy, which was great.
It was always great with Rochel because she was so flexible with me. And also she would have, with both my second and third, when she had students, she would always say I have my students come when I have you, because I know you don't mind. And you're a great patient.
Chana: And, actually you knew Kaia when she was with Kaia was a student. And I think that she wrote a paper about my JKA antibody thing, because it was so strange. I was always game for you know, students can measure my fundal height, and all of that stuff. Like I'm down.
And I had the same, so with the JKA antibody, what happens is apparently it gets worse with subsequent pregnancies, which they did kind of, I don't know if it would be considered like warning me about, but they did say like this does become more and more severe or like, I don't even know if it's like a risky, you know with every next pregnancy. So they certainly monitored me quite a bit. I had to have consultation with Dr. Hong, and with this one they were like very clear, you're not going past 40 weeks. So I was like, okay, I get it.
Then, towards there was like really nothing all that significant during my pregnancy with him. I think I felt a little bit nauseous, but not as nauseous as I did in the past with Max. And then I was due October 16th and I remember getting the call from Rochel that she said Dr. Hong doesn't want you to go past 39 weeks that he feels like 39 should be the cutoff. And I think I felt pretty deflated about that. I was like 40 I get, but like 39 I was like, give me a chance, you know? I really didn't wanna be induced.
Lisa: Do you know how many weeks you were that when they told you that?
Chana: I think I was like 38 in a couple of days.
So we had scheduled the induction and so Rochel called me, I remember she called me at work and she said Chana it will be fine, I will be there, I'll meet you there. I remember her saying, I'm gonna give you a whiff of Pitocin and then we're gonna turn it off.
Chana: Like, we're just gonna get you to go into labor 'cause then you're gonna go. I had these two I don't know if they would technically be called precipitous, probably the second one, but like really I had these two fast labors, Rochel was like, I'm not worried, we're gonna give you a whiff of Pitocin and then you're gonna be done and that'll be it.
But I really, I didn't wanna go into labor at the hospital. I didn't wanna do any of that. But he really felt, he was like, we don't know what's going on the inside. Cause I guess, the tests that they can run, they can't do it when the baby's in utero. The biggest concern is they wanna make sure that there's not any fluid on the brain.
He was like, we can't really determine that from a sono, so it's better if we have the baby on the outside.
So I think that was on a Monday. And so the plan was that I would be induced, I guess that next day or that morning, the next morning. So I told myself I was gonna work half a day and then take half the day and just do things like whatever.
I don't know, go get my nails done or I don't know, chill out, do whatever I wanted to do. So that was Monday when they told me that plan. I went home and it was oh, this is what I remember. It was Columbus day or you know what we used to call Columbus day with that bullshit.
And so Zoe was home because she was in kindergarten, so she didn't have school. But Max had daycare. So I picked up Max, Josh had been home with Zoe all day. And we had a normal evening. The plan was, I think I would work half the day, the next day, and then be home, and then I guess that night we would go to the hospital and start the induction.
I think that was the plan. So we got home, blah, blah, blah, normal evening, and put the kids to bed, ate dinner, and then I got in bed and I felt like a gush not like a big, not like a water break gush, but just like a little gush. And I remember going to the bathroom and looking and seeing some like bloody show.
Chana: And I was like, oh hurray, okay something's going on, so if I have to go get like a little bit of pit, I'll be well on my way, awesome. Went back to bed. I fell asleep. I woke up probably, I think it was like, I don't know, 11 or so with some crampy discomfort.
And I was like, oh, what? This doesn't feel good. And then Max woke up in his bed and I had to go sit with him. And I, when I reread the story, I had to go sit with him and he wouldn't even let me just lay on the floor next to him. I had to sit on the side of his bed, you know? And rub his back. And I was sitting there playing on my phone and contracting, having back labor and being like, what the f***, this is what it's like have a third baby, I can't even go into labor in peace.
Lisa: Like, where's my chill baby. I want my chill baby back.
Chana: Seriously. Right. Like now is not the time dude.
So I finally did that. He was asleep. I went back to my room and I got the ball and I was like, let me bounce on the ball for a little bit. And I remember I put on Friends and I was like, oh, I'm still laughing. This is so early. I'm good. And then after a while, I told Josh and I was like, okay.
And I think I texted my mom, I think things are starting just so you know, the plan was that my mom would come to my apartment and stay with the kids, you know if we had to leave in the middle of the night, I texted Rochel I think things are starting, and I think she was like, yay, super excited that we wouldn't have to deal with the induction.
And, eventually I couldn't deal with the ball anymore. And I was like pacing a little bit. And then I went into the shower and I went into the shower and I remember I like squatted in the shower. And I had a huge contraction, I remember, I just have this memory of squatting in the shower and having this enormous contraction and being oh shit, this is it, any doubt I had in my mind that I was in labor gone, I know this is it.
So I got outta the shower and I was just like pacing and I said to Josh, I wanna go to the hospital. We gotta go. He was like, okay, my mom's on her way. So he was like, I'll go put the bags in the car and pull the car around. I was like, okay. So I put on clothes and he had left and I was just pacing in my dark living room.
I remember walking from the front of my apartment all the way to the end where we had the windows that looked out, just walking back and forth and breathing and doing a lot of horse lips and that kind of thing. And I think I said to Josh, I don't think my mom's gonna get here in time.
I need you to, we gotta go. And so we had a friend who lived around the block and we had told him if we need we'll call you to come, so Josh went to get the car, called Ira to come to the apartment. And then at that point I was like, I can't even wait in this apartment anymore.
Chana: And I was like, I'm just gonna go wait for Josh, on the sidewalk. So I walked out and I went down and as I was leaving the doors to my apartment, I saw Ira run to us, and in my mind, I remember thinking, thank God he's running, can you imagine if I saw him like casually?
Lisa: You, would not have been pleased.
Chana: I'm like, dude, I'm in labor.
So he like ran in and I was like my mom will be here soon. He was like, okay. And he just went upstairs and I walked outside and it was like,it must have been, it was like around, I wanna say like two o'clock in the morning. Thought it was the middle of the night.
Yeah. When labor started, I think that first gush of bloody show that I felt was somewhere around like 10:30, 11.
So this is two o'clock in the morning. So I waited for Josh. He finally pulled up and of course, we had gotten a minivan because we didn't have any other way to fit three car seats. And I opened the door to the back and I remember thinking this car is so high up for me to get in right now in this crazy discomfort, to have to hoist myself in...
Lisa: That sounds really difficult.
Chana: It was, and I sat on the edge of the seat, the passenger second row seat, like the bucket seat there, holding the headrest while he drove to the hospital and I kept saying, I remember saying to myself through every contraction and they were all, again back labor saying, I can do this, I can do this. I can do this like that. Like over and over again was like my mantra. So I said that over and over again. And finally, when we got off the highway and were pulling in, when you get to NUMC you make a turn to the right. We were waiting at that light and Rochel pulled up right next to us in her car.
And she rolled down the window and I rolled down the window and she said, how you doing? And I said, good. And she said, do you have to push? I said, no. She said, okay, good. I'll meet you in there.
Lisa: She's like, yay. I made it before the placenta.
Chana: Totally. That was like our whole joke, the whole time she was like third time's the charm. I'm gonna make this one.
I was like, you better. We get in, again we pulled up to that emergency room, just like with Zoe, Josh pulled in the wrong way. I was like, are you serious? Have you learned nothing?
Lisa: Aren't you a veteran at this by now?
Chana: I'm like, common dude. So we walk in and I remember walking through the doors and there were people at the front desk and the door wasn't working and I was like, please open the door. I felt like I was like that woman in labor. Finally, we get in, we walk up, get in the elevator and go up.
I feel like Rochel might have even been in the elevator with us. We all walked in, she took me right into triage. She said give a urine sample if you can, change your clothes, then come and we'll see what's going on. So I was able to do that.
Chana: Got on, had some big contractions, got on the table, and she said fully water's bulging, she said as soon as this water breaks, you're gonna have the baby. I was like great. She said, let's go right now. We'll go right to a room. She got me up, like held me, you know, helped me walk over.
We walked through the nurse's station, didn't even go around through the nurse's station, right to the room, and I leaned on the bed like standing up leaned on the bed and had some big contractions, the resident came in and he was like, we need you to consent to a cesarean. And I was like, what are you talking about?
I was like, you realize I'm fully dilated. It was like one of those, you know, paperwork time. He was like we need to do an ultrasound to confirm vertex. I was like, the baby's hanging out of me.
Lisa: Hilarious. Another one of those read the room dude kinda moments.
Chana: And I remember Rochel saying to him, you can do an ultrasound, but you're gonna have to do it with her standing there.
He was like, okay, I will. So he did, she was like, she's not getting in the bed for this ultrasound.
Like, no. So I was like, okay, so you did that, next contraction, my water broke all over the floor. And then I said, I have to push and Rochel said, you know, if you can hop on the bed and go hands and knees, I said, sure, I got on hands and knees.
I like grip the back of the bed. She was like, just push whenever. I pushed, I think I had two pushes and I felt, you know, the head came out, I remember thinking, I do remember having the thought in my head, this is really painful, This hurts, but I'm gonna meet the baby.
I remember thinking I really wanna know, if it's a boy or a girl, so I pushed again and unfortunately the nurse screamed. It's a boy! Even though I had really wanted to!
I really felt fine about it. And I think Rochel even said like, oh, she wanted to say it. And I was like, it's fine. It's fine.
I was really excited that it was a boy. I really wanted to have another boy. I don't know why; I really did. And I should also mention that when I found out Max was a boy, my heart sank a little bit and I won't hide that, that the thought of having a boy was so foreign to me and having sisters, I was like, how can you have a girl and then not have a sister. It felt like, like my world for Zoe shattered. But, I think that's legit. I think, you know, it happens. That really lasted like moments. And then the third one came out, it's a boy, I was really excited. Rochel said like, you know, lift your leg, I was in like a squat, I like lifted my leg up and she passed him through to me. And I was able to then turn around and have him on my chest. And yeah, we let the cord pulse for a while, he had a true knot, that Rochel showed me, she was super excited. We took pictures of it. It was cool.
Lisa: That's such a mystery, isn't it? How are they being a little acrobat in there and just getting it in a knot?
Chana: Yeah. I heard it has to happen early enough when they're small enough that they can do that and then it doesn't untangle, but yeah, I mean, she showed me it's so cool. It looks like how can that not restrict things, but it's just so that jelly is like, yeah.
So like that was super cool. And then, my dad had, it was really cute, my dad had been driving to drop my mom off at my apartment, so he dropped my mom off and then instead of going home, he just came to the hospital, and sat in the lobby and waited for the news.
And then, you know, Isaac was born at 3:30 in the morning. So Rochel got me all situated, all settled up. And then I guess she went downstairs, either she left or she just went, I don't know. And she saw my dad and was able to tell him all's good, Chana had the baby, you know, I'm sure he texted something. But then, and I think then she said like, do you want to come up? So my dad was like my first visitor, was able to come up and see the baby. And then he went home and then the next day, I am trying to remember, I guess maybe my sisters came, my mother-in-law was able to come, my mom came. It was like a normal day, somebody had to get the kids to school and all that stuff. I don't remember if Isaac was jaundiced.
Lisa: I mean, that's a good thing. So 'cause it must not have been a big deal if he was.
Chana: He might have been, but we knew we were anticipating it. So we did the same, you know, we're not coming to the clinic, we're gonna deal with this with our pediatrician at home. Like he's fine, so it was totally fine.
Lisa: Did they have to do scans on either of your boys for the brain? Just to be sure that there was no fluid.
Chana: No. I guess they said when they came out and the Peds looked at them and everything looked fine, they said everything looks great. And then, so we went home, and it was really nice to be home, we had, you know, a bris again, that also was beautiful but exhausting.
I did have some, I noticed, I would say like a week into nursing, that he would get very fussy at the breast after a little while. And I remember nursing him and seeing him scream and inside his mouth, seeing that it looked really tight, like his, his frenulum looked really tight.
And it really concerned me, so I did call a lactation consultant, I called Heidy Ramirez, 'cause I love her. She came over and she took a look and she said that she thought it was a tie. And she consulted with an IBCLC. And so I did take him to Dr. Siegel and he wound up having a tongue tie and a lip tie, that I had corrected, which made things much better. He was gaining perfectly fine, and I didn't have any discomfort and I'm thinking that it's because it was my third time nursing, so I had a well-established milk supply, and I was used to nursing. But I could tell that, you know, what Heidy confirmed for me was that he was getting very frustrated at the breast and was getting exhausted.
Chana: So he would fall asleep. So I wound up having these like very short nursing sessions that were not satisfying for him. So I was really glad when I got the tie corrected, because then he was able to nurse much more efficiently.
Lisa: And did you have any issues breastfeeding your first two? None. So, I mean, I'm grateful. And I think that, that's why, the tie probably would've gone except for the fact that I saw it in his mouth, I probably would've persisted through the you know, short because what did I know? Maybe he was just a baby who liked to nurse, you know, short amounts of time.
Chana: Looking back, I'm curious if my middle guy has a tongue tie, because now what I see is like I took him to like several ENTs, when he got older, because he is very poor sleep now, and I think that I like, I'm so curious and like maybe later on, I will take him to be evaluated.
Lisa: Like he's always had a little bit of some speech issues, nothing that's ever been diagnosed. I'm curious if maybe he has a tie and that's where it's impacting things, but who knows? Do you have any remembrances to share about introducing your children? Do you remember any of that?
Chana: Yeah.
Zoe came to the hospital and she was just two years old. She was two and a little bit. So it was kind of foreign for her. I mean, we have the pictures, we got her like a gift to bring, that was like from the baby. We did all of those things, a gift from the baby to the big sibling, that kind of stuff.
And she was fine, you know, Zoe, when she turned one, she turned into like very, she always preferred Josh. I can psychoanalyze myself for a long time around why? Is it when I stopped? You know, nursing, I don't know, well, I nursed each of them til they were like give or take two years old.
You know, only to sleep in the end, but I don't know. Zoe turned one and full on she always needed Josh. I was simply there to nurse to sleep, and I don't know, clean the house, that was it. It's fine.
Chana: It's fine. So not, totally past it.
That was summertime when I came home and I had Max, Josh was able to do a lot of things. I remember that first week, he would take her to a baseball game and take her to the playground and take her, you know, to do all of these things.
Chana: And she was perfectly fine. She didn't care. It wasn't like, oh, where's mommy. She really didn't have any jealousy in that regard. She was also in daycare full time, which I always recommend if your kids are in full-time daycare, if they're in a part-time program, anything, just keep that routine going.
She got so much more attention from school and her teachers than she could have ever gotten if she was home with us, even the two of us being home, it was so important for her. She was in a place where she felt loved and cared for, entertained all day long. So she was really fine. They all had their weird, I have all these memories, of like the sleep regression stuff, like sitting in the doorway, like, please stay in your bed.
And like sitting there nursing a two day old baby and you know, all of that kind of stuff, but like very normal.
With Max, when Isaac was born, I think it was a little bit harder because he was three and he kind of knew a little bit more. And he also wasn't as attached to Josh as Zoe was attached to Josh.
So I did have a really good connected relationship with him, so I think that was a little bit hard. When Isaac was born, it was during a time when Max didn't have school, they all went to a Jewish daycare and it wasn't on a holiday, but it was on a time when we often have a break during the holiday of Sukkot, which is like a seven day long holiday.
So there are intermediate days where oftentimes like religious institutions will be on break. So Max happened to be home the day that I came home with Isaac from the hospital. And I remember my mom was with him and she got like flowers for me. And Max was like holding these flowers. And he looked like the biggest toddler I had ever seen in my life.
And I remember feeling very sad. Like I just broke this kid's whole world. But he was fine. He's still a pretty chill dude. He didn't have any anger or anything, but it was hard managing three, that was really difficult. Josh had just started a new job, so he didn't really have any time.
Chana: So he went back to work pretty quickly. I was able to have my mom. I also had a babysitter who was there for when Zoe would do after school, 'cause she was in kindergarten. So I had a babysitter and that was really helpful that we had hired, she's like a high school student.
We had hired her, so she was able to do a lot of that pickup, drop off stuff. But yeah, it was like I needed all hands on deck, it was intense.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're maybe just the second person on this podcast who has had three. Was there for you or Josh, was there any kind of grief process as you grew your family in either of the pregnancies or at any other time that you recall. Or it doesn't, I mean, for some people there's a grief process for some people it's a different kind of emotional arc. And just any observations with, if you have any.
I don't know if it was grief, but that being said, I knew I wanted to have three kids, three felt and maybe it's because I come from a family of three, when I had three, it felt really good. But it was really draining.
Chana: I actually, my postpartum time, like immediate postpartum, that first 12 weeks was like super normal.
But I got sick, like physically sick, I think I had strep throat twice in that first year that Isaac was born. And I literally felt like this kid knocked my immune system out. I am really done, like I mean, I never get sick. I would get a cold, but I would feel okay. I remember Isaac must have been, I'm trying to think, this must have been Christmas, New Year's time, I think. And I got strep throat and I never felt so sick in my life. Terrible headache, I remember actually, I think my mom had been away and my sister had to come and help me because I was so like, I couldn't get outta bed.
I felt so ill and I remember thinking I've never felt this way, but I felt like my body had just been through so much with three pregnancies and nursing and all of this and working and doing so much, it really felt like a lot. So that was something that I think was really hard for me.
Chana: I also have to say that after Max and Zoe, like my body, physically, I lost weight pretty quickly. I didn't do anything intentionally, I never felt any pressure to get back to what I was before. It was never something that I felt.
And I don't think I had the healthiest lifestyle. I mean, I always enjoyed working out, I started running after Max was born and I really enjoyed doing that, but I drink too much coffee, I don't eat breakfast till you know, noon.
That kind of thing. But I dropped pregnancy weight pretty quickly. I gained more weight with each pregnancy and I remember feeling like I gained a lot of weight. Oh. I also saw a chiropractor when I was pregnant with Isaac towards the end. And I loved her.
Chana: That was super helpful.
Lisa: What caused you to go?
Chana: My back hurt so much, because I was carrying this huge baby, Max was my biggest, Max was seven 10, Zoe was six, four. So then Max was seven 10. When Max came out, I was like, holy sh*t. That's a big baby. I mean, seven 10 is not a big baby, but compared to what I was used to is a big baby.
I gained a significant amount of weight when I was pregnant with Isaac, so I saw a chiropractor, Dr. Christine Antoldi in Forest Hills and she was phenomenal. I loved going. It was so helpful. I felt like it really helped me, to be able to manage, I mean, towards the end, I remember feeling like this baby's going to fall out of me.
So that was really helpful. But physically after Max and Zoe, I was able to lose weight and then it was not the same after Isaac. I just felt inside, like my body feels different. I don't know why, my stomach felt different, I never quite got back, the diastasis recti I felt like it was much more enhanced.
It just really felt very different, which I just found, I mean, it's still something that like I think about, and I struggle with. But I just found it so interesting because it was so different than the other two pregnancies.
Chana: Everyone's different and I don't know what it was. I mean, it was also, you know, I was working full time, Zoe was four months when I did my first birth back. Then that felt intense, so I kind of slowly eased in.
And then when I got pregnant with Max, I said, I'm not taking any births until he's a year. I mean, I had my full-time job, with each of them I went back to working after about three months, Max was actually about two and a half months, when I went back to work, but I wasn't gonna take any births because going back into birth work felt way too intense. With Isaac, actually I think, he was born in October, I took maybe six months. But I was, working full time, and then went back into birth work. So my life was different and also dealing with bigger kids. Right. Having to do a lot more stuff all the time and being spread that much more thin.
So, you know, I think that I loved having, and I still, I love having three. I tell everyone like three is so special and I love it. But it is definitely intense. But you know what,any number, no matter what, right? Like when you have one it's intense, because one is intense. That first kid is really amazing, you know, what it does to you and then adding another one is what in the world? How do we ever do this? And then anymore, it seems unreal and unmanageable in so many moments, but it's also that great. I really feel like, you know, Zoe was my mermaid and Max came like an ambulance, and Isaac was my angel, he came exactly when I needed him to avoid induction, and he let me make it to the hospital, into a room and with Rochel right there, you know, like he really, I was able to finally figure out that special magic piece.
Lisa: But no time to fill a tub or anything for sure.
Chana: There was no time to fill the tub. That was out of the question. I did. But I think I realized with Max, when it happened quickly, I was okay, fine. And then I think I knew that if I got there fully, they weren't gonna be able to.
I got it that one time.
Lisa: Nice. All right. Well, is there anything else that you haven't gotten to share that you'd like to share or any final insights, particularly for someone who might be thinking about having three little ones or any expected parent.
Chana: Be gentle with yourself. It's a lot. I will also say that I held by my promise to not kill myself over the pump and probably around three or four months with both Max and Isaac I supplemented with formula, and I do not regret it for one half a second in my life. I had somebody in my home with Zoe and with both of them, I had them with a babysitter and then in daycare from the time they were, daycare started at six months.
So, you know, whatever bags of milk I sent is what they had. And that felt very stressful to me. What if they're starving and they don't have more breast milk, which is why I was like, I'm sending a thing of formula and you have to use it as needed. And they did. I still pumped, I pumped with Max till he was about nine months old.
And then I was at, a place in my job where I was like moving around a lot more, like not sitting at my desk, so I couldn't pump as easily. And then with Isaac, I think I pumped till about a year, maybe like 10 months. Thank God I was able to successfully breastfeed them, and all of them nursed till they were about two, at the end it was just in the morning or at night. But it was so important to me that I not drive myself crazy over pumping and adding in pumps on the weekends and that kind of thing.
Lisa: A lot of additional pressure.
Chana: So I was like, nope, we are getting the formula, send the formula. And that's what we did.
Lisa: Great. Yeah. There's so many ways that we can feed our babies.
Chana: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Lisa: Thank you so much Chana.
Chana: You're welcome.
Lisa: I don't want to cut you off, is there anything else you wanted to share?
Chana: I did bake challah when I was pregnant with Isaac. And I did at some point unlock my key, my lock and key when I knew I was in labor, those were things that were really important to me.
So I was able to do them and his full name is Isaac Daniel. He's Yitzchak Daniel. It's after Josh's other grandfather who actually passed away. He passed in, I wanna say it was the February, not immediately before Isaac was born, but pretty soon after he had, 'cause he had met Max.
His name was Daniel. So we were able to name him after him. I really love that all of my kids are named after grandparents. I think it's, I mean, I'm so sad that they didn't get to meet them, but having the ability to name them and be a part of that tradition and lineage is so special to me.
Lisa: Yes. The legacy. Oh, love it. Thank you so much for in particular. I just love the Jewish traditions that you shared. There's something really beautiful and mysterious at the same time.
Now I wanna go read more about some of the things you shared and gain a deeper appreciation for it. Thank you for sharing that.
Chana: You're so welcome. There's a wonderful book called Expecting Miracles. I'll share the link with you. And it's all about stories of Jewish people giving birth and how they included and lots of different stories, lots of different types of birth and ways that it happens.
But ways to include different pieces of mysticism and spirituality and observance into labor and birth and parenting. I read the book when I was pregnant with each of them, just to bring me into that sacred space. it really is such an incredible thing.
Chana: And, you know, as a birth worker, being able to literally see a soul enter this world, Not that everybody that I work with is observant or spiritual in any regard. But for me to be kind of like in the presence of even just from a science background, how miraculous birth is.
Lisa: Agreed. I can't wait to read that book. Thank you for mentioning that. And I'll be sure to include that in the show notes for anyone who's interested.
All right. Well, I'm sending you love Chana. Thank you again so much for sharing your baby's three sacred birth experiences and all about your journey surrounding those births. Really beautiful.
Chana: Thank you so much, always. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for having this platform for me and everyone else.