Today, Marise Angibeau-Gray, a Black mother and full spectrum doula, shares the story of 3 pregnancy losses -- one in each trimester -- that led up to her 4th baby’s birth story. (TRIGGER ALERT: Please note that this episode may be upsetting for anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss or trauma.) Marise shares aspects of the emotional journey as well as how she selected each of her care providers and eventually found an optimal fit who would give her customized care. She also shares insights on a couple of things that are NOT helpful to say to someone who has experienced pregnancy loss and the ways in which she planned ahead for support for the postpartum period, knowing that this time could be particularly risky with all the grief she had already endured. Finally, Marise shares about the important work she and a fellow NYC doula are doing to better support Black birthing folx who might experience loss in their journey into parenthood.
Episode Topics:
Full spectrum doula definition
1st pregnancy - complete surprise, miscarriage around 11 weeks
2nd pregnancy a year and a half later - same initial signs (spotting, cramping) - found different provider, with midwives - subchorionic hematoma, also less communication than ideal, got to 19 weeks, something felt off one day and went to ER, bleeding - miscarried and had a traumatic experience, told she has an incompetent cervix
Her interest in birth work started after that experience, wanting to know more about women’s health -- deep dive into self-study
3rd pregnancy soon after (5 mths later) - early signs of spotting, went to new doc again - constant checking on cervix - around 22 weeks cervix was shortening
Rationale in choice of type of care providers between 2nd and 3rd pregnancy
Doctor notices the coiling pattern of the cord of her son was abnormal around 29 weeks, go to weekly prenatals
A few days later, noticing less movement -- went to ER and they couldn’t find a heartbeat - had to give birth to sleeping baby
Taking time to process grief; joined a monthly support group, did aromatherapy
Sharing the ways that the hospital supported her 3rd loss
4th pregnancy - about 1.5 yrs later - worked with same MFM practice at Mt. Sinai East - started feeling anxiety around 26 weeks
Started doing BPPs weekly at 29 weeks
At 37 weeks, felt strong enough not to request induction at that point, but scheduled it for 39 weeks. Induction gave her more of a sense of control after her losses
Arriving at hospital late at night, setting up aromatherapy, started around 2am, already around 4cm dilated
Foley balloon + pitocin
Took around 6 hrs for her to start feeling uncomfortable
Pitocin causing strange pattern, turn it off and her body takes over
She agrees for AROM -- gets really intense, gets to 7.5 cm and starts to consider epidural
Compassionate discussion with her doctor about getting epidural & gets it
Fully dilated, pushes baby out in only 2-3 pushes
Having so much energy after birth that she was up and
Building postpartum support lots - family, friends
Ways to get creative building in support in pandemic
What to say and what to not say to parents experiencing loss
How you can follow Marise’s work, particularly in support for black folks experiencing loss in the journey to become parents, joining together with doula Laura Kradas
Resources:
Follow Marise’s work: 4memphys.com / IG: @4memphys
MFM Associates (Manhattan)
Resources on Miscarriage, Stillbirth, Premature Birth, & NICU
Other Black birthing stories on this podcast:
Sponsor links:
Natural Breastfeeding online course (or learn more here)
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome, Marise.
[00:00:01] Marise: Hi, Lisa. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:04] Lisa: It's so good to see you and hear your voice. And I'm really looking forward to hearing you share about your experiences. Marise is a full spectrum doula and Marise, I have a feeling a lot of our listeners don't necessarily know what a full spectrum doula is. Would you be able to explain exactly what that is, please?
[00:00:22] Marise: Absolutely. So a lot of people associate being a doula, mostly with being labor support, but a full spectrum doula actually supports clients and families through the full spectrum of reproduction.
[00:00:40] So a lot of times that can be preconception, whether that is just kind of being that support system and also being informational when it comes to preparing for conceiving. It can also be working with clients who may be going through assisted reproductive technologies like IVF or IUI, kind of helping them manage that very complicated process.
[00:01:05] And then of course that involves birth and being support, prenatally with information and childbirth education to also postpartum. Which a lot of that can involve lactation support and things, emotional support. But then there are couple of other areas that a lot of people don't think about, which is helping people through pregnancy loss. And then also through abortion. These are areas that, you know, are very much not talked about as far as like, you know, kind of bringing other people in your circle to support you through those processes, because it can be very traumatic. I've experienced loss myself. So that's actually why I decided to become a full spectrum doula because I know how much these things aren't talked about and how a lot of people suffer in silence.
[00:01:59] So. Full spectrum, the full spectrum of supporting families.
[00:02:06] Lisa: Thank you for sharing that. And your training is with Doula Trainings International, correct?
[00:02:12] Marise: Yes, it is.
[00:02:13] Lisa: Yeah. And I actually am not familiar with, in terms of the title of a full spectrum doula. Are there multiple certifying organizations that certify for full spectrum or is it just DTI?
[00:02:25] Marise: So DTI is one of the few, I believe they just started their full spectrum program. I think they've had it going for maybe about maybe a little over two years now. what's great about DTI is they offered it virtually, which was amazing in a year like this year, when, you know, it's really hard to do trainings in person.
[00:02:46]But there are a couple of other organizations that do offer full spectrum. I believe Mama Glow is another; they may have actually been the first. But there are few, I know that I specifically sought out this particular program. DTI was the organization that I felt just spoke to me as an individual and my ideals more than any of the others.
[00:03:11] Lisa: Great. Thank you. Well, so you are going to share with us a bit about your three journeys through pregnancy loss and then your fourth pregnancy, which resulted in your sweet little baby girl, correct?
[00:03:26] Marise: Yes. Yes. Little Memphys Gray.
[00:03:29] Lisa: And she's how old?
[00:03:31] Marise: She is 17 months old now. she is probably currently downstairs somewhere wreaking havoc.
[00:03:39] Lisa: Yeah, because once they're mobile, look out, right?
[00:03:42] Marise: Yes. Oh yes. The house is turned upside down just about every night, so,
[00:03:49] Lisa: Oh my goodness. Bless you in this pandemic, having a little bitty one. Oh my goodness.
[00:03:58] Marise: Oh yes. Oh yes. It's definitely a test of patience and resilience. So...
[00:04:07] Lisa: Well, so start wherever you'd like to start in terms of sharing your journey.
[00:04:13] Marise: Sure. So I gave birth to Memphys 17 months ago. That was after experiencing some pretty traumatic pregnancy losses. The first time I ever just became pregnant. It was a complete surprise. I kind of just was really excited after going through the shock of it all.
[00:04:36]And had thought that I was just gonna plan for a really beautiful natural birth, just kind of taking notes from my mother about how her pregnancies were and the fact that she gave birth to three children and never really had any complications. And I kind of expected my journey to be really similar.
[00:04:59]But I actually had a miscarriage with that pregnancy around 11 weeks. I started having signs that I was miscarrying, but it just never crossed my mind that that was actually something that was going to happen. Again, kind of drawing from my mother's history and knowing that she had never had miscarriages.
[00:05:19] And it also wasn't something that I knew a whole lot about. Wasn't something that my family had talked about much. Nor was it something that you kind of hear out there among your peer circles. It's kind of a, you know, taboo to speak about it. At least at that time. I mean, it's obviously with social media, there's a lot more awareness, which, you know, I'm very grateful for.
[00:05:45] But at the time, yeah, it was so devastating and such a shock. And the thing that was really shocking was that the provider I had at the time had never thought to mention the idea of miscarriage to me, even when there were signs, that I potentially could be miscarrying. So that was a really eye-opening experience for me.
[00:06:06] And I decided from that point that I would try to educate myself a little bit more. But then also learning that it was so common. I didn't think that this was something that I would necessarily experience again. So fast forward about a year and a half later, I found out I was pregnant again.
[00:06:28] And I kind of had some of those same initial signs of potentially miscarrying. Like I had some spotting and some cramping, and I thought maybe this would be happening again. So I decided to try to find a different provider, but one that was actually connected to midwives because I figured, hey, if this pregnancy goes to term, then the idea is that I still want to pursue, you know, a pretty natural birth. One that did not have much intervention. So I did, I found a provider. I found an obstetrician who actually did work with two midwives. And I found out that I had something called sub chorionic hematoma, which was what caused the spotting and a little bit of the bleeding.
[00:07:17] That was also a surprise to me because I had to get that official diagnosis at an ER, and this was after having gone to the midwives that I was seeing at the time. And they mentioned it, but never followed up about what could be causing this. So that was also another eye-opening experience because then I started to realize it seemed to be a pattern of neglect that I've been experiencing with providers, where for some reason they just didn't feel that it was necessary to be totally transparent with me or just to follow up. And maybe it was just kind of a disconnect or a miscommunication. But just understanding that any person who's going through pregnancy, whether it's completely uncomplicated or whether it's riddled with complications, there's such a level, there's a high level of anxiety attached to that.
[00:08:12]So just being clear and communicating and also being patient is, to me, vital to providing good care. So, fast forward a little bit through that pregnancy. I had gotten to 19 weeks and everything seemed to be going okay. But then I had a day where I just kind of felt these waves of I wouldn't say it was pain, but it was something. Something was going on.
[00:08:43]And I didn't really know exactly what it was. So I was even asking for a friend of mine who she was pregnant at the same time, but she was a little further along than me. So I was just asking her about like normal things that you might feel during pregnancy. And she told me that, what it sounded like I was experiencing sounded normal to her, but then kind of those waves of pressure persisted throughout an entire day.
[00:09:11] And by that evening, I had a gush of blood and I had to go to the emergency room because, of course, I figured this had to be an emergency at 19 weeks pregnant. This isn't normal. And I went to the ER and had the most traumatic experience of my life, kind of being stuck in an ER setting, with doctors who really didn't want to interact with me because it almost felt as if they were afraid to provide any information to a pregnant woman. And when I finally did, when I did have interactions with a doctor that came down from the L and D department, it was really awful. She was really unkind, very swift in diagnosing me with an incompetent cervix, telling me that there was nothing that could be done to save my child at this point, that my cervix had already started opening.
[00:10:08] Lisa: Isn't that a terrible term? "Incompetent cervix." There are so many terms in birth and pregnancy that I'm like, can we really, can we change these things? "Failure to progress" and...oh my gosh.
[00:10:22] Marise: I mean, it's just, you're right. It's like, there are just so many ways of really making birthing people feel that their bodies don't work. Yeah. Which is absurd.
[00:10:40] Lisa: It is, it's so absurd.
[00:10:43] Marise: Yes. And it's a way of also making us think that we absolutely need westernized medicine in order to, you know, bring forth life, which, you know, Western medicine is a fairly new concept.
[00:11:00] Lisa: You're so right. Yeah. Great point.
[00:11:04] Marise: But somehow human beings have been around for, you know, for hundreds of thousands of years. But anyway, So yeah, that's a very ugly term. And to this day, I still don't know if I really do have a cervix that tends to want to open prematurely.
[00:11:21]But you know, after that experience, I kinda just really geeked out on learning about, of course, you know, just this idea of having an incompetent cervix and what are things that you can do in pregnancy to prevent your cervix from opening? I joined like a few different Facebook groups and like some online forums of other women who have had this diagnosis before.
[00:11:45]And then I also just like really started to learn. I started to learn about fertility. I started to learn about our menstrual cycles. And I started to realize that there was so much unlearning I needed to do in that process because so much of what we learned in health class and just kind of throughout our lives is just wrong. It's just false.
[00:12:09] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:11] Marise: Yeah. So that's actually what sparked my interest in birth work after that pregnancy. I just realized how much support people really need, because here I am this at the time I was, I was 30, I think I turned 33 around that time. And I'm 33, college educated, I live in New York.
[00:12:35]I felt like I should know more, I should know more about how my body works. I should know more about fertility. I should know more about, you know, that our entire body is, is a system that works together. And how am I nourishing that? How am I making sure that I'm a healthy individual inside and out?
[00:12:56] So, yeah, I kind of went on a deep dive into that, listening to podcasts and just kind of really doing a whole self-study process. And then I got pregnant again not too long after I had that loss, which was really only about five months later. So again, I had early signs of spotting, which at this point, I just figured, "Hey, maybe I'm just a bleeder. Maybe I just bleed when I'm pregnant. That's just a thing.
[00:13:28] Lisa: Who knows? Could be.
[00:13:30] Marise: Yeah. I was like, I know this happens to people and I know it's very normal for a lot of people, so maybe that's just it. And at this point, I had already done a lot of legwork and finding a practice of the doctors that worked with women with high-risk pregnancies. Cause I knew at this point, you know, after having a second trimester loss and a first trimester loss that, you know, and potentially having this issue with my cervix, that I would need to see doctors who were going to just monitor me very closely. I felt like that would bring me peace of mind.
[00:14:06] So, I found a really great practice in New York and they were really awesome throughout that pregnancy. I had a cerclage surgery by actually another doctor who is in South Jersey who I'd scouted out as well. But then continued my care with the practice in New York.
[00:14:27]So yeah, I was monitored very closely going--I think by the time I got to 16 weeks, I was going in for bi-weekly scans, to just monitor how the baby was doing. And you know, to also just constantly check on my cervix and see what was happening. There was a point where I think I was about 22 weeks.
[00:14:50] Where my cervix had shortened to about two and a half centimeters, which is kind of on the cusp of what is uncomfortable, I guess, for doctors to think that, you know, you potentially could go into preterm labor. But because I had the cerclage in, they were a lot less concerned, but still it was something that they wanted to check because the other thing is that they think that monitoring will really determine whether or not, going forward, if I would ever need that cerclage stitch again.
[00:15:24] Lisa: Can I ask you a question about the way that you chose care providers, the second pregnancy versus the third. I was just wondering when you said you sought out midwives, a practice that had midwives as part of it, was that with the goal of mostly compassionate care and better communication or what was the rationale and then versus the third pregnancy, it sounds like it was just a doctor practice, no midwives, is that correct?
[00:15:52] Marise: Yes. So the second pregnancy, I had gone into it thinking that I wouldn't have any complications and that I didn't have any, there were no reasons that I could have kind of a hands-off approach to pregnancy. And I wanted, I guess it was more so about, yes, I wanted care providers that were going to be present and more compassionate, and that trusted and believed in the natural physiological process of birth.
[00:16:28] Lisa: Oh, that's right. You spoke to that a little bit earlier. That's right.
[00:16:33] Marise: Yeah. But then the third time around, it was really just about my anxiety and me feeling like, you know what, at this point I really need care where -- bring in all the facts, bring in all the so-called experts on these things.
[00:16:50] Because I don't know what's going on. I really don't know what's going on. I don't fully trust my body. And I really do want to be monitored closely. And what's interesting is that in hindsight, I realized that what I was looking for during that second pregnancy was the compassion, was really still what I was looking for third time around as well.
[00:17:14] But I just felt like in order to achieve that, I needed to have providers that were going to be more hands-on and they were going to see me more frequently. So they could really feel what I was feeling, you know, and...and that's actually what I got, you know what I mean? And it came from MFMs and obstetricians and radiologists, and, you know, it's funny because it's like, it kinda went against a lot of what I probably originally would have thought about birth and who you should seek out when you're looking to have compassionate experiences.
[00:17:52] But it also just goes to show that you can get that throughout any part of the spectrum, you know, whether you do choose midwives or you do choose an obstetrician or, or whatever that is, whatever your experience is, you really can find that compassionate care, and people who are going to advocate for you.
[00:18:13] Lisa: Great. Thank you for clarifying on that.
[00:18:14] Marise: Oh yeah, definitely. So with that third pregnancy, I had gotten all the way to 29 weeks and I had gone in for my 28-week scan, actually. And one of the doctors noticed that my son, his umbilical cord was, it's called being hypo-coiled.
[00:18:36] So it didn't have a coiling pattern that is typical in pregnancy and umbilical cords. So the concern was that, that would mean that he could have intrauterine growth restriction or he could have issues with his heart rate kind of not being regular. But up to that point, there were no signs of any of that. Whenever I would have an ultrasound done, his heart rate was always great. As far as the measurements that they were taking, he was actually measuring a little ahead of that 29th week. So there were no markers saying that this was actually becoming a problem or that the umbilical cord was being compressed, but the idea was that, okay, well, now that we know this, we want to bring you in every week now for a scan. So I didn't think too much of it. I just thought, you know, okay, well, I was already going every other week, so now I'll just be going once a week now. So a few days after my appointment, I had gotten home and kind of was just going about my day -- it was the Saturday. And I started to notice that I had less movement from the baby throughout the day. I would feel pressure here and there and I thought maybe that was movement, but it wasn't like there were no sharp elbows or headbutts or anything. So sometime that evening I got really nervous and told my husband we should go to the local hospital and just demand to have a Doppler or an ultrasound done, which is what we did. And we got there, told them what was happening, I told them about my history. And they pulled out this rickety old ultrasound machine and tried to find a heartbeat and there was no heartbeat.
[00:20:30] That was really a struggle. I waited a day, so my husband actually called the doctor's office. And they advised us to maybe sleep on it overnight and come in the next day. And, you know, if I want it to come in the next day I could be induced and they would just kind of go from there. So that's what we did. I ended up having to give birth to my son the following day. Yeah. And he was born sleeping.
[00:21:04] So then it was the struggle of, you know, kind of bringing myself back to life again after another loss. So I took a lot of time, to just really grieve after that process. Again, I just was kind of lost. I didn't know why this was happening to me. Why in such different ways? Yeah, I just, I just didn't get it. I didn't get it. I really had to tap much, much more deeply and to just my faith and you know, what I believe, while also trying to have a deeper understanding of fertility and the complexities of it all. And that, even in nature, things don't go according to the routine.
[00:22:01] So yeah, that was a really hard process. I finally joined a support group, which I hadn't done with the other two losses for reasons that I really can't explain. But I knew that with this third loss that I really needed to be very proactive about how I was going to pursue healing through this. So the support group has been really amazing. I still go to it to this day. We meet once a month. And yeah, just like continue to read so many articles and read different books and read other people's stories, which is really cathartic because as much as you hate the idea that anyone has to go through this, it just, it eases that sharp pain to know that you're not alone.
[00:22:56] You know, that's like a really hard part about all of it is just feeling so alone, especially after three losses. Yeah. So, so that was something, I mean, I really had to do a lot -- I try to run with therapy, which I still love to do to this day. And then I just thought a lot too about the idea that I'd definitely want to be a parent.
[00:23:18] So however which way that was going to be, I just really wanted to try to prepare myself, mind, body, and soul for being a parent someday. So, yeah.
[00:23:33] Lisa: Do you mind my asking, I would love to hear a little bit about if you'd like to share is with that third loss giving birth to your son, you said, did you feel like the place that you gave birth was equipped to help you process that? Like, did they have a photographer? Did they have any things that helped you say goodbye or process that at all?
[00:24:02] Marise: Yeah, so they didn't have a professional photographer, but they did have, the nurses had cameras, so they were able to take pictures. They do give you like a little, it's kind of like a little package.
[00:24:16]Just with like, some words of encouragement, and sympathy. I was still able to have my son's footprints done. So they kind of give you, like, it's not an official birth certificate, but you know, kind of like a birth card that yes, like we gave birth and your baby existed.
[00:24:35] And you know, this is very important. They also allowed me plenty of time after delivering him that, you know, if I just wanted to sit there and lay with him, I could do that. And I did for quite some time actually. It was interesting because my parents, my parents had come up from Virginia. And they were with me, with my husband and I during this process.
[00:25:01] And it's funny because the hospital was allowing me all the time in the world, but then it was almost like my parents wanted me to kind of let go faster the hospital. Which I know, you know, that has a lot to just do with their own way of dealing and processing. But, but yeah, I was given plenty of time to just kind of be with him.
[00:25:22]And yeah, they, they wrapped him up and, you know, everything was just as if I was giving birth to a live baby. The other thing I would say is that what was so amazing to me and so sensitive was that when I came into the hospital, they knew. They all, it was almost as if everyone, all the staff was already kind of given like a debriefing of who was coming in, what room she should be in. I was also given a private recovery room, which was a really cool space.
[00:25:54] Lisa: I can't imagine; that has to be private. Oh my gosh.
[00:25:58] Marise: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like it was probably the best room on the recovery floor. So yeah, like, and then I also, met with the, the social worker who's amazing who I love her to death. I still, like I said, I still go to the support group now, but she had some really amazing resources and made sure to continue to follow up and just be that support through everything. So, so yes, this hospital, I think, it’s actually Mount Sinai, on the upper East side. So I'll, I'll shout them out, I love them. But yes, they were definitely equipped, to kind of support people who are going through this.
[00:26:40] But the birth photography thing is the one thing that I would add to their program around loss. You know, because I do wish I had better pictures, to kind of capture that time. So many people always talk about like having a photographer during a live birth. And, you know, I think that we should be capturing life, you know, and death is part of life.
[00:27:08]And that was something that I would love to have come away with, besides, you know, just memories and whatever images are plastered in my mind, but I would like to be able to refer to these images and be able to show them to my daughter now. That this was an experience and as tragic as it was, you know, it was still beautiful.
[00:27:33] Lisa: Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm glad that the hospital was able to mostly support you well in that, because it's hard enough as it is.
[00:27:46] Marise: Yeah, definitely.
[00:27:48] So I went down this crazy road again. So I would say it's probably almost, it was probably about a year and a half later, that I conceived my little daughter. And it's interesting because -- so, the day that I found out I was pregnant, I was actually headed to the annual memorial for bereaved parents.
[00:28:13] I found out I was pregnant and there was no spotting. There was no bleeding, no nothing. So that was already, you know, it just made me feel like, okay,
[00:28:23] Lisa: [A] little more hopeful?
[00:28:26] Marise: Definitely more hopeful. Like maybe this will be different. And even at times throughout the pregnancy, when I felt very, very anxious about things, I was just like, hey, just having the ability to conceive, was just such a blessing in itself. So each day that I could carry life and the days that I felt her kick, I just had to stay grateful for those things. Especially after going through what I've gone through and hearing so many other stories about people who just struggle to conceive, and have to go through leaps and bounds to try to be parents.
[00:29:07] There was not one ounce of me that could in any way squander those moments. Yeah. So, the pregnancy besides having terrible morning sickness, which is something that I have with every single pregnancy. It was actually really uneventful. So I did go through getting a cerclage again.
[00:29:32] Lisa: And did you say with the same practice?
[00:29:35] Marise: Yes. I stayed with the same practice. There's one doctor in particular who I've really connected with, she's with MFM, I think she's at Cedar Sinai now on the West coast. So she was the doctor who I had most of my early appointments with.
[00:29:52] And she, like I said, was super responsive. Just so empathetic to everything that I had gone through. And just, it's just knew, you know, she's like, "Here's my cell phone number. You can text me anytime. If you want to email me, email me anytime." She was always the one who would call me with whatever, you know, test results that I'd get.
[00:30:14]She just like had such a lightness about her spirits. But then she was also so well-informed and she really did feel like an expert, which she's supposed to be, but it was like kind of the best of both worlds.
[00:30:31] Lisa: That's awesome.
[00:30:32] Marise: Yes, it was so, so, so great. and what's so funny is that halfway through my pregnancy, I found out that she was pregnant as well. And it's funny cause she was actually further along than I was, but she's an MFM. So she also was very protective over that information and I think it was more so to protect her patients than to just like sharing the joy of her own pregnancy, but, you know, working with high-risk patients.
[00:31:00] So, yeah. Later in the pregnancy, I found out that she was also pregnant and that she was going to be moving back to the West coast. Which was really sad for me because I didn't want her to, I wanted her to be there for my birth.
[00:31:12] Lisa: Oh, so she was moving before your due time?
[00:31:17] Marise: Yeah. So, that was sad, but I was really, again, just so happy to have her during the early part of my pregnancy, when you know, things are really, really stressful, especially before you feel movement, you know? Cause you don't have that reassurance. It's kind of just like, you're just going day by day. Hoping, hoping that you know, the pregnancy continues.
[00:31:39] Lisa: Sure. And were the weeks where you had previously had losses, were those especially anxiety ridden times or was it just the whole time kind of like, is this is gonna--
[00:31:50] Marise: wow, so... It wasn't until I got to about 26 weeks. And maybe it's because I had gotten to 29 weeks before. So the prior weeks weren't as stressful. I mean, I definitely had days and moments where I just really had to think of ways to keep my anxieties at bay, but I had gotten up to about 26 weeks and I was just having full on panic, like panicked moments.
[00:32:23] And I remember calling my practice one day and just saying, "I just don't know, like, I don't think I feel as much movement." And they would just say, "Okay, come in, like just come in." I got there one day around that time and they did an ultrasound, everything looked fine and one of the doctors there was just like, "You know, whenever you're feeling nervous or you just need that daily reassurance, just come in. You don't even need to call us, just show up."
[00:32:53] Lisa: That's amazing.
[00:32:55] Marise: Yeah. Really, really amazing. And they're like, "We understand ; we know why you're feeling stressed out right now, you know?"
[00:33:02] And there was never even a question for me. I knew I was going to elect to be induced because in my mind, I just needed to get to 37 weeks. And at that point, she told me when I was about 26 weeks, she said, " I know we talked about induction. And when we get to that point, if you really feel like it's better for your stress, it's better for your anxieties, we can talk about inducing at 37 weeks." And of course she's like, "It's totally up to you, but you know, we understand where your mind is and what you're feeling right now." So that just gave me a lot of comfort. I kinda just said, "You know what, I just really need to power through."
[00:33:52] Because once I had gotten to 29 weeks, they started doing weekly scans, anyway. I was going in to get those weekly biophysicals, which is kind of similar to the non-stress tests, but not as long. So that's what I told myself. Like, let me just get through these next few weeks. And then I know that I'm going to be there every week to see a scan. And the way that I like staggered my appointments, I was kind of doing some during like the early part of the week and then maybe the next one at like the later part of the week. So it was kind of just, I felt like I was always in there anyway to get a scan.
[00:34:31] Oh, man. So, so yeah, I'd gotten to 37 weeks and, you know, I felt emotionally and mentally strong enough to push it further. So, I scheduled my induction for 39 weeks. I knew at that point that, obviously, it's to be induced around that time, the outcomes were, you know, there were just a lot, there's a lot more evidence, that obviously you have a much better outcome if you give birth sometime between 38 and a half to 42 weeks.
[00:35:06] So I felt a lot more comfortable pushing it to the 39 weeks, where, you know, [inaudible] for me,
[00:35:14] Lisa: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I was just wondering, had the ARRIVE study come out at that point?
[00:35:19] Marise: It may have, because I definitely was regularly listening to Evidence Based Birth.
[00:35:24] Lisa: One of my favorites. In fact, I'm wearing an Evidence-Based Birth t-shirt right now and I had their hoodie that just came in the mail today.
[00:35:33] Marise: Hey, see, I need to get that. That needs to be part of my doula gear.
[00:35:38] Lisa: That professional membership is the best money spent ever. I cannot believe how much educational content constantly they're creating. It's so great.
[00:35:50] Marise: So much. And it's just so helpful because we're such an evidence-based society. I think people need that in order to be convinced of how they're going to make decisions. I mean, it's too bad that, you know, we we've kind of relinquished our ability to just use intuition.
[00:36:13] Lisa: Great point, yeah.
[00:36:16] Marise: Like, you know, even as doulas, when, you know, we feel away based on like, experience and what we've seen, we still have so many clients and we come in contact with so many people that really need to see the research.
[00:36:30] So it's, it's just such a great resource Evidence-Based Birth, yeah. It's such a great research [source].
[00:36:36] Lisa: Anyway, I'm sorry. I kind of got us off track there, but so you were scheduled for 39 weeks...
[00:36:42] Marise: Yes. I was scheduled for 39 weeks. It was wonderful; that day came. It was kind of really nice, just like, you know, just having, having control in a sense.
[00:36:56] I just felt that I didn't have control these other times. I had these losses and I thought that I had done all that I could to have better birth outcomes and I didn't and I didn't have control over it. So this was kind of really nice for me, you know, it was just, it was really good for me emotionally to just feel like, okay, well, I know I'm going to give birth within the next day or two.
[00:37:26] Lisa: As you're saying that that makes so much sense and I kind of just connected a dot with the pandemic. So we're recording this the day after Thanksgiving, 2020. And I have noticed an increase in people preferring to schedule inductions during the pandemic. Part of it has to do with like being able to test right before and know that you're negative when you go in.
[00:37:47] But I also think it, like you're saying, in a time when we're feeling so out of control, it's nice to have something where you're like, okay, I know I'm going to meet my baby in the next day or two. Yeah. So, but I hadn't actually thought about it when it comes to having experienced loss and that makes so much sense.
[00:38:07] Marise: Yeah. Like even, so I have a friend who she had gone through IVF and, she ended up, she knew she was gonna be induced, because she also had PCOS and she had gestational diabetes. So she knew she was going to be induced, but she ended up being induced earlier because her blood pressure readings were not coming down.
[00:38:34] So she ended up being induced earlier than she initially expected. So it was a little bit, you know, it wasn't totally planned, but I remember in the moment, her having that experience and feeling, very nervous about like just the whole process, but then months later her and I talk about it and she's just like, "Yeah, like, I'm such a type A person and induction just makes sense for me, you know, she was like, it, it actually helped me to, to kind of go through labor. Cause it was like, I knew what to expect, you know, and just going through the whole process of IVF," she was like, "It's almost like I needed that because like, as hard as it was like, I kinda needed to know what was happening. Like I needed that control to kind of keep my emotions at bay."
[00:39:24] Lisa: That makes a lot of sense.
[00:39:25] Marise: Yeah.
[00:39:26] Lisa: So do you want to share the details of how the induction went and Memphys' birth?
[00:39:32] Marise: Yeah. So when I arrived, I was checked in and we kind of set up the room a little bit. I had a little music playing, had a little aromatherapy in there. And so we arrived at midnight and the induction didn't actually start until maybe about two or three. So I had time to kind of settle in and get comfortable.
[00:39:53] And I was actually already at four centimeters. So it's very possible if I had waited like another three or four days that I would've gone into labor naturally, but it's fine. So yeah, I was already at four centimeters. We started with the Foley balloon, which I didn't need it for very long, obviously.
[00:40:17] Lisa: Yeah. Because if you're at four, usually it falls out around that time, but it must've just...
[00:40:21] Marise: As a matter of fact, I think they started it, maybe I was at three and a half. Cause I know it was very quick. I just remember it being very quick where, you know, they put it in and it basically fell out, within like a couple hours after we started the Pitocin.
[00:40:36] So I had the Pitocin drip, and that was going for, I don't know, I want to say like maybe about six hours. And it had taken kind of a while for me to really start feeling uncomfortable. So there was a point where the Pitocin was kind of causing me to have contractions in like a really strange pattern.
[00:41:03] Like some were like back-to-back then some were a little bit more space style, and some were just like really, really intense. So, my doctor that was there at the time, decided to turn off the Pitocin, just to see if I would contract on my own, which I did. I started to just have contractions on my own.
[00:41:22] Lisa: I love it when that happens!
[00:41:24] Marise: Yes.
[00:41:25] Lisa: I always point out to people sometimes your body just kind of gets it and is like, "I got it from here." But so often hospitals just are so used to their regimen of like, we're going to do this medication. And often it takes you advocating for yourself to be like, "You know what? Can we just try turning it off?" So, yay, that's great!
[00:41:42] Marise: Totally. Yeah, that was really great. And that's again, like it's the difference between really great care, you know, really customized care versus the routine. That's what they were looking for. They're looking for, "Okay, well, what do you really need?" You know what I mean? "Let's give you a little Pitocin and see if the contractions get going," because again, I came in already dilated like only a couple of centimeters before active labor anyway. So yeah, so they turned it off. I had like a more regular pattern, and then I kind of consulted a little bit with my doctor about whether or not to break my water. So of course I say, "Yes, break my water. I know it's going to be intense, but anything to get this process through as quickly as possible." Like that's what I needed at that time. So I had them artificially break my water and boy did it get intense.
[00:42:42] I mean, I was having contractions, and I wasn't getting a break. So they were really, really, really intense to the point where I was asking the doctors to come in and check me, like constantly. So it would be like an hour would go by and then I'd be like, "Can someone check me and see where I, someone please come in and check me."
[00:43:05] So at that point there was a shift change. So two other doctors from our practice who I actually really loved, I was so happy that they were there. They had come in. And so one of them, she came in and I hadn't really had much progression after like maybe two hours. I think I progressed, actually I progressed all the way to like seven and a half centimeters.
[00:43:25] And that's when I just felt like I was losing it. Like I just didn't, there were no breaks between the contractions. They were so intense. And then of course I was hooked up to the monitors, which again was really, it was a really complicated place for me to be in, because I almost needed the monitor, like the heart monitor--
[00:43:45] Lisa: That makes sense.
[00:43:46] Marise: For reassurance.
[00:43:47] Lisa: Sure.
[00:43:48] Marise: But then I also knew how much it was restricting my movement.
[00:43:51] Lisa: Yeah. It's tricky.
[00:43:54] Marise: So tricky.
[00:43:55] Lisa: 'Cause it sounds like it wasn't wireless.
[00:43:58] Marise: Yeah. No, it's not wireless, which is another interesting thing. I feel like a lot of the hospitals in New York don't have wireless.
[00:44:06] Lisa: And if they say they do, it's kind of like a unicorn; they're not charged when you show up or there's not a nurse who's willing or trained to use it. Yeah. It's unfortunate. I wish they would, that needs to change.
[00:44:18] Marise: That really does need to change. You're right. And I had like, cause I think it's so important for people to have these discussions about exactly what labor is going to look like with their providers weeks before they get to that day. So like talking about things like that, you know, what are my options as far as movement, if I am hooked up to monitors and things, and I have these discussions with my doctors beforehand. But it's almost like they only give the doctors so much information about what there actually is available at the hospital. So my doctor was like, "I think they might have wireless monitoring, but you know, they're probably going to try to hook you up to, you know, like the stationary ones."
[00:45:01] So, so it's things like that I think are just interesting because you're right. It kind of just comes down to maybe who you encounter that night and what nurses actually willing to give.
[00:45:14] So, I had gotten to seven and a half centimeters and like I said, I really felt like I was losing it at this point.
[00:45:23] And you know, I have no idea. It could take me another five, six hours to get to 10 centimeters.
[00:45:32] Lisa: Doesn't that play games with you? Such mind games, the fact that nobody can tell you how long do I have to have to do this?
[00:45:39] Marise: Someone tell me how long I need to be in labor.
[00:45:45] Lisa: If only!
[00:45:49] Marise: So I did finally decide on getting the epidural. And it's funny because I was so against...I wasn't against having an epidural, but the ideal situation was that I would go without one, even knowing that I was being artificially induced and the intensity might be a bit more heightened in this situation.
[00:46:10] But my whole thing was that I didn't want to have an epidural where I felt that I was numb because that was my experience prior to this. And that was me giving birth to, you know, a sleeping baby. So I just knew that I needed to feel a live baby come out of my body. And somehow, I was able to formulate this to my doctor in the midst of like these really intense contractions.
[00:46:44] And she was so sweet and so patient, because she was just like, "Okay, so like, I know we talked about you not wanting to get an epidural, but do you want to try to explain to me again what is it that really is keeping you from wanting the epidural?" And, you know, I told her, "You know, I really just, I don't want to be numb. I want to feel the baby. I want to feel the pushing. I want to feel all of that." And she was like, " I get it. I understand what your last situation was. I understand your last experience. And there was probably a reason that you were given medication at that time, you know, that was so strong, because you were already going through a lot." But then she was like, "But you can just get an epidural that'll take the edge off the pain. It doesn't have to numb you from the waist down." She's like, "I promise, you know, there's an amazing anesthesiologist here, and you will still feel everything. You'll just be able to rest a little bit before you start pushing." So that made me feel like, "Okay, I have permission to do this now. Like now I can give myself the permission to do this, to get some sleep, because I really honestly had not slept even the night before, before going to the hospital, like I was really up because I had to make it to that day, you know, so. So I got the epidural and Lisa, Oh my gosh. It was the best thing in the world.
[00:48:14] Lisa: Awesome. I'm so glad. That's what you want to hear when you make such a thoughtful decision. Is that yeah, it was exactly the right thing.
[00:48:23] Marise: It was exactly what I needed. It just calmed me down. And I think I took like a 15- or 20-minute nap. And then next thing I know, I feel this huge pressure that I had to poop.
[00:48:43] Yeah. So I would say between the time that I got the epidural to the time that I finally started pushing, it wasn't more than like an hour, which is crazy because now I realize in hindsight I was in transition when I asked for that.
[00:49:01] Lisa: Well, yeah. Which is very common time for people to be like, "Yeah, I think I need it. Yes, please."
[00:49:12] Marise: Totally, totally. So, it took maybe about two or three pushes. And she was out. Quick, so quick. and she came out screaming and yelling.
[00:49:29] And were you pretty numb in the pushing stage or were you able to feel anything besides pressure?
[00:49:34] I felt everything. I could still move my legs. Like I was so amazed at how precise the epidural was. And the fact that yeah, like this was not what I experienced prior to having pain medication. Because I had also had pain medication when I gave birth to my son at 19 weeks. And I think that was, they gave me Cytotec and it was really awful for me.
[00:50:04] Lisa: I almost asked about that one.
[00:50:06] Marise: Yeah. Yeah. So they gave me Cytotec and then they gave me something to, it was some kind of narcotic. It wasn't an epidural, but it was a narcotic. And it was like, it just made me feel like I was in a fog. And didn't actually take the pain away. So it was like, my history had kind of made me feel like I needed something very different for this experience. And I got it. I really got it.
[00:50:36] Lisa: Oh, that's so great. So how did you feel when you met her?
[00:50:49] Marise: It was really surreal. I just, I couldn't believe it took me a few hours to really wrap my mind around the fact that, first of all, that I had just gone through that experience of giving birth and she was alive and super healthy. And, you know, just like this perfect little creature, it was so, so great.
[00:51:15] And I was up walking around and it actually, this is funny. I would never tell this to any of my clients, but I was up walking around like, I think I had to get like one or two stitches. I had like a first-degree tear. But yeah, I was up walking around like shortly after all the medical staff left the room and I probably should have been using that time as you know, the golden hour to kind of get her to latch on. But I was like too busy, just like feeling so excited.
[00:51:48] Lisa: That makes sense. Yeah.
[00:51:50] Marise: And the fact that I could get up and walk.
[00:51:55] Lisa: Yeah, you never know what you're going to do with that energy. And it makes sense, particularly after you'd been through so much that you just had all this energy where you're like I gotta get up and move around.
[00:52:15] Marise: Yeah, it was really amazing,
[00:52:17] Lisa: But I know why you said I would never tell this to my clients. Because we doulas are like, "Lay low, lots of skin to skin and breastfeeding," and like, "Don't do anything."
[00:52:26] Marise: Right! Totally. Like now you need to rest. Let's focus on latching, it's such an important time, you know, to get breastfeeding off successfully and totally just broke all of my own rules.
[00:52:42] Lisa: And that is totally okay, of course. And is there anything you wanted to share about the days or the weeks to follow in your postpartum journey and any of the emotional processing, like, did anything come back from the previous losses as you went into parenthood, any of those kinds of things you wanted to share?
[00:53:14] Marise: Yeah. So, I was very keenly aware of how difficult postpartum could be. So I kind of just made sure that I had support set up for myself. Because you know, probably in just about any situation, obviously postpartum is really hard. It's very much underestimated of how difficult it can be.
[00:53:36] Lisa: You're so right.
[00:53:38] Marise: Yes. But then of course, with everything that I had gone through. And finally getting to this point, I was very nervous about coming down off of that high, you know, feeling like, Hey, this isn't what I expected. So because of that, I just made sure I had my mother, she was with me for a while, and have really, really, really amazing friends who all like wrapped me in love and support during that time.
[00:54:09] And of course, awesome family. So yeah, I just made sure that I had that support set up. I made sure that I was eating well. I mean, I didn't sleep much for the first three weeks, but who does with a newborn. But you know, I could get rest, definitely I had people on deck to help me take naps when I could.
[00:54:29] So postpartum was actually a lot. It went a lot smoother than I was anticipating. And maybe I think a lot of it was because of the planning, you know? I was very afraid of it not going smoothly. So, so yeah, I made sure that I planned.
[00:54:47] Lisa: Listen to her. There's some wisdom there. Really important. It's been a resounding theme in the podcast birth stories is, "I did not," -- well, you did realize how much support you were going to need, but so many people are like, I had no idea how much support I was going to need. Even though I say it in class, I harp on it in class. But it's so experiential that a lot of people just still don't really plan a lot. But I'm so glad you did that's so, so wise, and so thankful that you had a community around you who was willing and able to support you with love and care.
[00:55:23] Marise: Definitely. And you know what, that is also another really hard thing about this time with COVID is that it's just another hurdle that so many families have to struggle with because even if they do have the support, the support can't necessarily be there now.
[00:55:42] So you have to get really creative and how you kind of build that network that can't be there in person. And there are so many ways, like, I think the doula community has like come up with some really great strategies to help clients and to also galvanize communities around new parents who, who are trying to figure out how they're going to get support during this time.
[00:56:05]So yeah, that just means like having takeout dropped off at your front door. You can be upstairs and have someone come and maybe clean up for you downstairs, like. There are different things, obviously. Yeah. In New York, you know, we're talking about apartments, so might be a little slightly different in that way when it comes to the cleanup.
[00:56:26]But yeah, like there are definitely ways and having virtual support when it comes to lactation, if you decide to breastfeed or chest feed and just really finding ways to connect is really important because yeah, this is a really hard time.
[00:56:45] Lisa: Marise, I wanted to ask you with your experience and all the insight you've gained from the journey through several losses, what are specific ways that people can be sensitive to someone's loss? Are there things that people should say or you feel that people should not say little guidance on that, if you're willing?
[00:57:11] Marise: Definitely. So thank you so much for asking this because I think this is actually what helps, for these issues to come out of the shadows, is that the more candid we can discuss these things, the less afraid people who want to give support feel about supporting those who have had losses and really need, you know, they need their families and their friends and their community's presence.
[00:57:39] So number one thing that you should not say to anyone who has had a loss is that you can try again. So anyone who has children, multiple children, you know that if you lost one of your children, that the others don't magically take the place of the child that you lost.
[00:58:02] That was your baby. That was a life that was a unique individual. And that will never take someone's pain away. That does not make them more hopeful, whether or not they are able to parent children in the future. So that is the number one thing that you should never say.
[00:58:24]Another thing that I've gotten -- I didn't feel too awful hearing this. I do have somewhat of a thick skin. I am a very sensitive person, but I'm also able to, you know, just kind of view things from other people's perspectives. But I have gotten the, well, at least you can get pregnant. That's been thrown at me by even really good friends. Who may have had their own struggles.
[00:58:49] So they look at that as like, "Oh, well, it's a great thing." Like, and while that is a great thing, that, yes, I feel very grateful that I'm able to conceive without additional assistance with conceiving. Yes. That is a beautiful, miraculous thing. But again, that does not do anything for the pain that I felt from loss. So.
[00:59:14] Lisa: And then all this sounds like a synonym in a way to the first thing that we shouldn't say, because it makes it feel like you can conceive again.
[00:59:24] Marise: Exactly. Exactly. So those are two big things. There are a lot of things that you can say that I think would maybe be helpful for different people at different times, but I actually wouldn't focus too much on what to say. I think the biggest and most important things is don't go away. Don't think that, "Oh, this person, like let's just give them time alone. Let's just give them space, you know, they just deserve some privacy to grieve."
[00:59:58] Let them tell you when to go away, you make sure that you are present and being present doesn't mean that you have to know all the right and perfect things to say, because quite honestly, words are fleeting, you know, especially when you're in the throes of having that loss. And it's at the most raw times during like those early weeks and months after.
[01:00:21]Just showing up for that friend, whether that is to bring them a meal, whether that is to just send them a, "Hey, I'm thinking of you," text whenever you want to talk, you can always lean on me. Those little tiny just ways of showing that you love them and that you're present and you're there with them through this, man, those go so far. So far. So, those are, I would say those are definitely the biggest takeaways that I had from my experiences. And I've even had relationships that are now sort of on the men, that, you know, didn't go so well through my losses because there was this like, thought that, you know, let me distance myself because I don't want to add on more pain to this friend who just had losses, but then, you know, I'm pregnant now.
[01:01:21] So, you know, that--
[01:01:23] Lisa: [They] probably felt awkward.
[01:01:25] Marise: Yeah. There's like those moments where it's like, just don't go away because that also is not going to help. If you have like something going on in your life that you think is going to bring this person pain, don't assume that for them.
[01:01:40] Just be very mindful about them going through it, but always communicate, always say like, "Hey, I'm here for you. I know that you're going through something that's really hard. And you know, I want to be here. And I also want to be able to share what's going on in my life with you as well."
[01:01:57] Lisa: Several things you were saying there brought back to mind when our goddaughter passed away and being so afraid to say the wrong thing. And thankfully coming across an article or two on tips for people who are trying to support a loved one through loss. And what you were saying about just showing up and just texting, just to even just express love. And for my goddaughter, you know, helping her feel remembered. That's a little different when it's a miscarriage and your friends didn't know your child. But, yeah. I made so many mistakes in all of that. And some of which I probably don't even know the missteps that I made, but there was some times that I tried to be too helpful, like, and in doing that, I think I caused harm and I of course felt so awful about that.
[01:02:53] But then, then I kind of learned over time. Okay. I'm just going to text her and say, I love you so much, you know, praying for you, thinking about you, love you. Here if you need to talk, you know. Thank you so much for sharing that. And you said, on your website, when you share about yourself, I am now a mother to three angel babies and my dear daughter Memphys.
[01:03:16] And I love that, you know, that, that's another thing that I think. I don't always think about acknowledging you're a mother to not just one baby. You're a mother to four. Yeah. So, and I don't know if everybody thinks about it that way, like all people who've experienced loss?. Have you found that in talking with others, that some people identify it that way and others don't or most people actually really do think of it that way?
[01:03:49] Marise: Most people actually really do. And you're right; they're always going to be anecdotal situations where some people are like, ah, I had a miscarriage at, you know, four weeks. I didn't even know I was pregnant. You know, I found out after the fact. But most people do know and the minute that they find out, in their mind, they've already planned that child's entire life. So yes, they're still a mother or father or, you know, a caregiver and their child has just passed on. So they're no longer parenting, but when a baby is in your womb, you're nourishing that child and you're keeping that child alive. So that is parenting.
[01:04:37] Lisa: Absolutely. Two things: were there any other things that you haven't shared yet that you would like to share and then the other thing I'd love for you to share is how you can support people in this process.
[01:04:54] Marise: Yes. So, one thing that I would say to people who are trying to conceive or who are currently pregnant: These are really, really hard things. They're really hard things. And I feel that our society, while I think that there is a lot more awareness around the difficulty, we just don't honor it enough, we don't honor the difficulty and the complexities. So I would say that parents should really find ways and really kind of connect with what those things are that are going to keep them grounded through these processes. because they're so unpredictable and even in the most routine, normal situations. If it's new to you, then it can be scary. So being grateful, finding those places that keep you grounded, I think are so important for people to kind of really hold on to.
[01:06:04]One thing that I would say. In ways that I would love to support people going forward in that Laura and I, Laura Kradas, shout out to her, my other fellow lovely, lovely doula sister, her and I,
[01:06:18] Lisa: I'm hoping to have her on the podcast soon as well.
[01:06:21] Marise: I cannot wait for her to share her story. So her and I feel really, really passionate about just kind of getting back to basics when it comes to reproduction and what so many of us just don't know about this whole process, and about its vitality, and how that really, it really is a birthright and we feel that women of color, especially black women, that's been kind of stripped away from them.
[01:06:48] You know, this information, this knowledge and this history. And what we would like to do is to kind of create this space where we can really start to regain that power of knowing about our reproduction, knowing about, you know, the power behind our fertility, understanding how cumulative stress and trauma that we've faced over the centuries of being this country have really, really hurt us, you know? How that trauma is now living in our genetics and how we can figure out ways to build our communities back through this process of reproduction.
[01:07:31] Lisa: Hmm. I love your description. That's that is such critical work. And I'm so excited that you two are joining forces to do this. I cannot wait. I am going to be sure to promote the work you're doing as you're getting off to it, and we'll include it in the show notes.
[01:07:52]I think that Laura told me when we chatted that something was maybe starting in January or what is that going to look like logistically ?
[01:07:59] Marise: Yes. So we are hoping to, we have kind of like started the inner workings of coming up with the name for this community, for this forum in order to just have this awareness and for people to be able to just join this community.
[01:08:15]And yeah, we're going to start launching social media and our hopes are to have a podcast, where, you know, we can have amazing people like you on Lisa to talk about, you know, just the disparities, but also just really, again, us kind of having this community of education and information that we're kind of giving the power back to you know, the people who really, really need it. Yeah. That's, that's where we are. So yes, January is supposed to be the launch. Her and I of course have little ones, so it's hard.
[01:08:51] Lisa: Sure. Yeah, no, I totally get it. If things get a little postponed, especially like...pandemic.
[01:08:57] Marise: Right, right. Exactly
[01:08:58] Lisa: There's that.
[01:09:00] Marise: Yes.
[01:09:00] Lisa: Where like, let's be gentle with ourselves, whatever the timeframe; let's be loose with it.
[01:09:06] Marise: Yes. Exactly, exactly. Being kind to yourself that is like the motto for 2020 be kind to yourself,
[01:09:15] Lisa: Right? Absolutely. Yeah.
[01:09:20] Marise: Definitely.
[01:09:21] Lisa: Great. And so can you share with us your social media handle or however people can find you and I'll be sure to include it in the show notes as well.
[01:09:29] Marise: Yes, definitely. So I do have a website is www.4memphys.com and that is the number four M E M P H Y S. And that is actually also my social media handle on Instagram. It's @4Memphys.
[01:09:52] Lisa: And I'm just curious where her name comes from, if you don't mind my asking?
[01:09:56] Marise: Oh boy.
[01:09:57] Lisa: If that's not too private of a question.
[01:10:00] Marise: No, it's not a private question. It's actually a fun little way that my husband and I got there. So
[01:10:06] Lisa: Yeah, I've never seen that spelling before.
[01:10:09] Marise: Yeah. So first: one day we were driving. We listen to NPR, faithfully like everyone. And this actually has nothing to do with NPR, but we just happened to be listening to NPR and there was discussion about Memphis. Something was going on in Memphis and I don't know, I just like heard and I was like, huh, what do you think about Memphis for a name for, you know, the kid? So he's like, "Maybe. Like, I kinda like it." He had rules that we had to use in order to name any child that we had. He's like, "Well, there has to be some type of Black cultural reference. My rule was that it had to be a gender ambiguous name. So Memphis definitely fit that. And I was like, "I don't want anyone to be able to see the name on paper and know whether or not they're talking to whatever gender that they think would be attached to it."
[01:11:05] So, so that was my rule. And then, I forget what his last rule was. But anyway, those were the two main ones. So the gender ambiguous thing. And then we did a little research on the word Memphis and found out that it's actually, there actually was a city in Egypt, that was named Memphis. And, he's really big on, you know, again, like the cultural reference back to Africa.
[01:11:30] So he said, well, and phonetic language the "i" most likely would have been a "y" so we should spell it with a "y" instead of an "i", so, hence the name Memphys was born.
[01:11:43] Lisa: Oh, that is so cool. I'm so glad I asked because that's a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing that. This has been so lovely. Thank you so much for getting together and sharing your story. I hope we can chat again in the future, and I'm excited about the work you're doing. Again, I look forward to amplifying it however I can. So thank you so much, Marise.
[01:12:11] Thank you so much, Lisa. And I, so again, appreciate you for telling these stories. I mean, I think this is what helps everyone when it comes to, just like understanding what this is like, you know, and to kind of gaining knowledge and really gaining power. And never feeling alone.
[01:12:36]That's exactly why I wanted to not only share birth stories, but also fertility stories, stories of trying to conceive, stories of loss, because I feel like people feel too alone and shouldn't have to feel that way. Why should we have to be isolated.
[01:12:52] Marise: Yeah, exactly. Healing is definitely a community process.
[01:13:00] Lisa: Yeah, it should be. It needs to be
[01:13:02] Marise: Definitely.
[01:13:04] Lisa: All right, well, thank you again.
[01:13:06] Marise: Thank you for this platform.
[01:13:07] Lisa: Bye.
[01:13:08] Marise: Bye.