Donna and Sandy share their 7-year-old daughter’s birth story. They had hopes for an unmedicated birth, and investigate switching from a hospital OB to a homebirth midwife toward the end of pregnancy. Ultimately, due to it being so soon before baby was coming, they end up sticking with their OB despite increasing signs of misalignment. Fortunately for them, they labor at home and arrive at the hospital just in time for pushing and the birth of their daughter, who was born en caul, or without the bag of waters releasing. You’ll hear some reflections on pregnancy, birth and parenting from Donna & Sandy specifically from the perspective of parents who have a very dedicated meditation practice and who are on the older end of the reproductive spectrum – as is often the case for New Yorkers.
Resources:
Perineal Massage instructional video (YouTube)
Perineal Massage written instructions (The Functional Pelvis)
The Evidence on Prenatal Perineal Massage for Preventing Tears in Childbirth (Evidence Based Birth)
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Sponsor links:
Free “Pack for Your Best Birth” Packing List (with free mini-course option)
East River Doula Collective (find a doula, attend our free “Meet the Doulas” event)
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens, Live on Zoom or online/on-demand)
Episode Topics:
Was 41 when she got pregnant, was a surprise
Explored homebirth but stayed with OB in Brooklyn out of convenience
Focus on lots of yoga, walking, good nutrition
2 hours a day of meditation - focuses on sensations
10-day retreat earlier in pregnancy
9-day retreat at 8.5 months pregnant
Sandy was a hypnotherapist in the past - he did a bunch of hypno sessions with Donna
She recommends perineal massage
She was 10 days overdue, trying all the natural induction techniques
Red flags with OB toward end of pregnancy, didn’t want Sandy to catch baby, didn’t allow him to cut the cord
Wed 9pm contractions started, about 10 days past due date
In morning, Sandy called OB’s office
During day, the contractions weren’t strong
By 4pm on Thursday, contractions getting stronger
4pm-midnight labored at home
Deciding to go to hospital, intuitively
Vomiting every few contractions
Sandy was feeling tired, took a nap at some point
When he woke Donna was in bath
Painful but manageable
Laid in back seat and moaned for 20 min drive to hospital
Friend comes to help their arrival while Sandy parks car
In triage, she’s 10 cm
Nurse perplexed by her not wanting pain meds
Didn’t have time to get IV
Doctor arrives, is annoyed at having to come back to hospital
Doctor unsupportive of any pushing position not on her back
Cord was short, too short to come to chest
Took immediately to breastfeeding
They took baby away for 3 hours
Lots of disruptions in postpartum unit
Sunday morning, they keep asking to leave but due to billing, they didn’t let them leave until evening
Discussing their OB’s negative treatment of them
How the sac was torn open after birth
Breastfeeding went well, went to a couple of La Leche League meetings
Issa rejected bottle when introduced around 3-4 weeks
Using pink noise for sleep
They wish they had gotten out of the house more
Babywearing - Ergo was their favorite, wore her until 2 year old
Today’s solution is tomorrow’s problem
Sandy’s parenting reflections
They still meditate daily and are teaching Issa
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Today I am super excited to have students from like eight years ago. Donna and Sandy, welcome to the show.
Donna: Thanks, Lisa.
Sandy: Thank you for having us, Lisa.
Lisa: I'm so excited to see you again. I just, I don't think I've ever had anyone on the show that took my class so, so long ago. Lots has happened since then, but we reconnected on social and I saw you making an exciting career announcement and it just brought to mind a flood of memories, good memories of, well, I don't wanna spoil your birth story, but you'll share one particularly cool aspect of it.
And I was really surprised and delighted when you said, yes, I'd love to share my birth story. I didn't think you'd be interested this many years later, eight years later. But anyway, would you please introduce yourself? yourselves.
Sandy: I'm Sandy.
Donna: And I'm Donna. And we gave birth in June of 2015 when we were living in New York City.
We spent two years in the city after that, and then we moved up to Western Massachusetts.
Lisa: And you have a very dedicated meditation practice, correct?
Donna: Yes, we both do.
Lisa: Yeah, maybe you'll figure that into your story, but I'd love to hear, from that perspective, how that played into your approaches in pregnancy and/or with the birthing process.
Beginning of Pregnancy and Preparations
So, why don't we start with anything you'd like to share about how pregnancy went for you? If you'd like to share anything about the conception. How did you prepare for your journey into parenthood?
Donna: Okay. Well, it's fair to say pregnancy was not on our radar when I got pregnant, and I was 41 at the time, so I was a little bit older and knew nothing about pregnancy at all. Like just for 41 years. Never even thought about it. So when we got pregnant, it was a little bit of a shock.
And, you know how I guess a lot of women have it all planned out even before they get pregnant. They have their doctor picked out, they have the hospital, they have clothing picked out, everything ready. But I, we didn't have any of that. So we were starting from scratch.
We were also in the midst of a move. We had to renovate a house in Philadelphia, so it was a little chaotic. And the pregnancy, I guess, was our first priority. But, for me, I was like, I don't have time to research a whole bunch of doctors in New York City and things like that.
So we asked a friend of ours who was born and raised in Brooklyn and had a baby in Brooklyn, and I just said, gimme the name of your doctor. So she did, and so that's who I started off with just to kind of confirm the pregnancy. And I think at that time we were kind of open as to whether or not we wanted to get a midwife, if we wanted to do a home birth, whether we were gonna stay with this doctor.
We weren't thinking we were gonna stay with this doctor, but at the time it was just convenient for us. Well, it kind of got complicated as you know. So we never did switch from our doctor, even though we wanted to. We did look into like a midwife or two.
But we felt like it was really complicated. So we ended up staying with this medical doctor, just out of, really, out of convenience, I'd say. Right. And, this doctor is a very beloved doctor in Brooklyn. She is known for performing miracles in the delivery room and one time, we ran into a couple in her waiting room that named their baby after her. Like, she was just really, beloved. But, I guess we can get into a little bit more about that relationship a little bit later. But in terms of preparing, is there anything that you wanna–
Sandy: No, I mean, you took Lisa's class.
Donna: Well, that was towards the end. I think, we really, I think we both just tried to really take care of ourselves. We tried to eat really healthy, we did a lot of yoga and walking. We, in terms of the meditation practice at that time, we were both practicing two hours a day.
And I think for me, like, at the time, the meditation I was focusing on was on sensations and paying attention to sensations. And I think it really, I didn't realize this till later, until after I gave birth that I had a really high pain tolerance because of it.
And I attribute that to the two hours a day of meditation while I was pregnant.
Retreat and Hypnobirthing
Lisa: And didn't you all, you went on a nine day retreat, I believe. We had emailed, you gave me a heads up that if you don't hear from me, this is why. Anything you'd like to share? Do you remember? I know it's been a long time, but.
Donna: Actually, no, I remember exactly. I actually did a 10 day retreat when I was about four months pregnant. And then I did a nine day retreat, like when I was eight and a half months pregnant. And those were wonderful. They were so special, they were so special.
The center that I went to took very good care and it was just such a bonding time and such a time just to slow down and connect to the body and the pregnancy. So, I don't think everyone would have the nerve to do that, but I had been taking courses for years before that, so these weren't my first ones.
I knew the ropes. But they were really, they were really wonderful. They were just like times that I really cherish.
Lisa: And were those with people you knew or was it mostly strangers or all strangers?
Donna: Both. So when you take a course, there's some people who've been there before you'll run into them again. And there's also new people as well.
Lisa: I love it. What a great thing to do. For life, but especially in such a sacred time as pregnancy, where you really need to make more space, as much as possible to sit, be mindful, connect with the baby, connect with your body.
Donna: Yeah. I definitely, the one I sat when I was eight and a half months, when I really felt Issa kicking around, like I really felt most from her cuz I'm paying attention, right? And I'm quiet and I'm slow, that I'm really noticing her kicking around and communicating with me in different ways.
Sandy: I also was a hypnotherapist in the past, and we did a hypnotherapy session. And in that hypnotherapy session, the goal was we had some real concerns about being moved into unnatural processes of the, whether it be cesarean or whatever the case may be.
We wanted to have a natural birth. So that hypnotherapy session was about being in that situation where the doctor tested us when we came in and that we were fully dilated. And that, the hypnotherapy session was all around bringing that to fruition through Donna's mind and through my mind.
And, when she did go in that night, she was fully dilated. So that was, that was nice.
Donna: And I think you did that, like the hypnotherapy session, on me at least once or twice a day for the last month.
Lisa: Oh, wow.
Sandy: Yeah, there was one main session, and then there was, I also did some what they call, locking it in, that vision.
Perineal Massage
Donna: There was one other thing that we did that I really, I credit, and I tell every expecting mother about, and that's the vaginal massage. What is it called? The perineum or?
Lisa: Yes. Perineal massage. Yeah.
Donna: Yeah. Which I always tell mothers, make no mistake, it is not a massage. It hurts like you would not believe. But I credit that cuz I didn't rip, I didn't need stitches. And I was10 days overdue. And I think we started it pretty much at the beginning of June. Cause I thought it was due like June 16th, so I thought we were gonna do it for about two weeks, but we ended up doing it for almost a whole month. So, Sandy did it for me and like the first couple times it really hurt. But as time went on, you could feel the lubrication, you could feel the opening. And I truly think that's the reason why the birth was so easy. So highly recommend doing that.
Sandy: Yeah.
Lisa: Great. Good tip. Yeah, a lot of pelvic PTs recommend that too. The main thinking is getting your mind ready for breathing into it and relaxing into it because it's not the first time you're feeling that sensation. That's at least one of the reasons why we think it can really help.
Donna: And also just, it just stretches you out, right. And it also makes everything very soft. And you could, sort of, it's lubricated, right? It's easy.
Lisa: Yeah. Great.
Sandy: So she, Issa was born in the sac and Donna didn't have any stitches. So yeah, the actual birthing was--
Donna: The actual birth itself was amazing.
Sandy: Yeah.
Donna: Yeah.
Final Days and Preparations
Lisa: Well, anything else about your pregnancy that you wanted to share before we go into the birth story?
Sandy: What else?
Donna: I was 10 days overdue, which is a challenging 10 days because the doctor wants to see you every single day. And in addition, people are, everyone's calling you and texting you and asking you, and you're like, leave me alone. But I'm trying to think if there's anything else that, I remember that those last 10 days I was getting a little antsy and I was trying almost everything possible. Spicy food, eggplant, you know, the homeopathic stuff. I think we tried like everything under the sun to try to get her to.
But again, who knows? When she was born, she was only seven pounds, one ounce. So I guess that's when she was ready. That's when she was ready. I'm trying to think if there's anything else about pregnancy that we, I think that's it.
Sandy: Yeah.
Lisa: And was there anything in particular that was helpful in birth class that you learned? You did mention Spinning Babies that you, and maybe you'll speak to that in your birth story, that you used some of those techniques. And maybe, I don't know if you heard about that in birth class or if you found that elsewhere.
Donna: I don't even remember what Spinning Babies are.
Lisa: It's been so many years. Sure. That's understandable. That was just me going back to your initial email right after you gave birth and saying that you heard about the Spinning Babies techniques in class and that you used some of those. They're largely some yoga positions and things that really are to balance the body and help the baby kind of settle into a nice position or rotate in labor.
Donna: I think for me, your class really, the main thing of course was it's very educational of course in helping us have the kind of birth that we want. But I think for me, like if I, looking back now, it was really the confidence building that you could do this, right? Sandy and I went to, we started out in birth class at the public hospital and we just left there feeling very sterile, very unsupported, very, I think someone said that those hospital classes, they just teach you how to be good patients and make things easier for the doctors and nurses, right?
Like, it's not really empowering. Do you remember that class?
Sandy: I don't remember that class.
Donna: We felt very disempowered. Yeah, actually. And that's when Sandy got on the horn and said, let me go find another class. And Sandy's the one who did the research and found your class, and we're like, okay, well this class is in Astoria, we're in Brooklyn, it costs money, this one's free. I'm like, but this is important. We're doing it. And we did. And we're so glad that we did. We just felt very supported and nurtured. And again, it was a confidence builder that we had the skills, we had the techniques, we had the ability to do this the way that we wanted. We would never have gotten that from the hospital class at all.
Sandy: Yeah. No, I agree. And then the part of the class that really stuck out for me was, you prepared us for the hurdles we would face in having a natural birth.
So, I think we were very prepared. We were prepared to do what it took to not get onto that course where we wouldn't have a natural birth, so.
Lisa: And the biggest one that stands out to me as I review your birth story is laboring at home for almost the entire labor.
Sandy: Yeah.
Lisa: The biggest, best strategy when giving birth in a hospital and avoiding unnecessary interventions. Yeah.
Donna: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah. Thank you for comparing and contrasting hospital classes to out of hospital classes because a lot of people don't realize that, and hospital classes, not always, but generally teach you how to be a good patient.
You know, just tell you, this is how it is at our hospital, and don't tend to be helping you learn to advocate for yourself and have the healthiest birth possible.
Donna: I think we went to one class. I don't think we went back, did we? Maybe two. Maybe at the most two cuz
I don't remember what it was. But you know, at the very most it was like, these are the different pain medications you can ask for. This is, it's like, thanks.
Yeah. So anything else about the pregnancy? I think that's it. We were lucky. The bulk of the nine months was in summertime, so weather was good. And yeah, I don't think anything else pregnancy wise. I had a very healthy pregnancy. The first trimester, I had some morning sickness for about, I think, six or eight weeks.
Everything knock on wood was pretty, pretty smooth. Second trimester felt great, the third trimester, usual, felt great, a little bit tired and got really big. But other than that, that was it. Like we were very, we didn't have any issues. Oh, I got dehydrated once, but that was it.
Sandy: During the course.
Donna: Yeah. Yeah.
Processing the Surprise
Lisa: And was there anything you wanna share in terms of the emotional adjustment to this being a surprise?
Donna: I spent the whole nine months adjusting to it, like getting used to it. Even after Issa was born, I remember for a long time, maybe, I don't know, six months looking at her and being like, what is that over there?
Lisa: Sandy, any reflections for you in terms of the surprise?
Sandy: I think I transitioned to the finding out very easily, but of course, that's easy when there's no baby on the scene. The bigger transition for me was of course, when she came along and that was pretty big.
Lisa: That makes sense
Sandy: Yeah. The first three months were extremely difficult. And even the first two years were actually still quite a challenge, you know?
Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. It's one of the biggest life changes you'll ever go through. And it's nonstop. It's all around the clock.
Sandy: It certainly helped moving up to Western Mass. Once we moved up here at the two year mark, things were much easier to do. Like we took Issa to playgroups and different support things around this area. And even taking her to the store or wherever. New York is really a challenging place to have a baby if you're not rich, and have a nanny. If you're doing it all yourself, there's a lot of challenges.
Yeah. That's what we found anyway.
Lisa: Sure. Yeah. That's why we lose people.
Donna: That's why everyone moves to Westchester County and New Jersey and Connecticut and Long Island. And that's why they do it right?
Lisa: All the time. Yeah.
Discussing Birth Options and OB Struggles
Great. Well, unless there's anything else you'd like to share on pregnancy, feel free to start wherever in terms of your birth story in the weeks leading up, or actually it starting. Up to you.
Donna: Okay. Okay. So yeah, leading up to the birth, again, had a pretty healthy pregnancy, and I was due June 16th. And up until then, we did everything we could to try to educate ourselves and be ready for a natural birth. That's really what we wanted. And I remember talking to you, Lisa, towards the end of our class that we were becoming increasingly dissatisfied with our doctor and the protocols there.
And, our last class, or the second to last class, we discussed with you whether or not we should try to go for a home birth. I don't know if you remember that or not. And you said that we would be perfect candidates for that.
Lisa: I do. Yeah.
Donna: And of course, we considered that in the beginning, but not knowing anything about pregnancy and giving birth, we bought into the idea that we were too old to do that. I was 41. I'm high geriatric pregnancy. Like we bought into that, that we couldn't do it. And not having a kid before, like it scared us, like, how can we have a home birth? So we quickly, this is probably two weeks before I was due, so early June, started to look into having a home birth and we did find one woman that was willing to do it. However, we needed to do a lot in those two weeks. We needed to switch our insurance, we needed to get our medical records, we needed to buy a whole bunch of supplies. And I remember talking to the midwife, I said, is there just one place that we can just order all these things?
And she's like, unfortunately, no. We literally have to go to like 10 different stores to buy all the supplies that are requested for this home birth.
Lisa: Oh, maybe it was so last minute. Cuz there are kits you can order, I wonder if it needs more lead time, maybe.
Donna: Yeah.
Now, looking back, we didn't give birth till June 26th, we would've had time. If we would've known she was coming June 26th, we would've done it. I think we would've gone for the home birth. We were due June 16th, so I think we had like two weeks and we're like, okay, what if she comes early? So we decided not to go with the home birth, and decided to continue with our medical doctor, even though we became, and I, Sandy, maybe you remember this a little bit better, why we became increasingly dissatisfied. I know we gave her a birth plan. We wrote that up and gave it to her. I don't know if she hemmed and hawed around that, I think, or wasn't really supportive of it, but something started to change in our relationship with the OBGYN that we had. Do you remember that Sandy?
Sandy: Well, I just, as one example was, I wanted to become a little bit more of a participant and actually, maybe, catch the baby. Catch the baby. And, she said, no, that's not possible. So, of course, looking back, of course they had protocols and I don't but, whatever.
Donna: But if we were home, you probably could have caught Issa.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Donna: So we just, yes. You said yes you can? When you're at home, you can catch the baby?
Lisa: Yeah, it's often the default in many cases for a midwife to just say, reach down and bring your baby to your chest, or your partner wants to do it. They're much more supportive in that birth setting. Sometimes hospital policy, doing air quotes, hospital policy will restrict a provider, or many providers are just not comfortable with it.
Occasionally you'll find a hospital provider, particularly hospital midwives, who are supportive of that.
Sandy: We had our suspicions that it was also her ego and that, that was kind of cemented in the process, in the birthing process the night of the birth. That it was that, very much ego based.
Donna: Yeah. Because there were other things that we requested she didn't honor. We requested that Sandy cut the umbilical cord. They didn't honor that, she just, the OBGYN just snipped it and we were getting clues that this maybe wasn't a match for us, but at that point we were too late. So, we were kind of just resigned that we're just gonna have to go through this and we're gonna have to just do our best and stand our ground and Sandy did a lot of reading. I remember there was a book or something that we read that we both read to be very prepared. And, yeah, so we were 10 days late and during those 10 days, increasingly having to go to the OBGYN every day for blood work and this, like, pretty exhausting.
Start of Labor
And so finally, Issa was born on the 26th, which was a Friday morning at 2:00 AM. So the Wednesday night, before the 24th, around nine o'clock at night, I started going into labor and I think we had just seen our OBGYN that day, I think so. So it was like nine o'clock at night, and we were going to sleep and I said, Sandy, I think I'm going into labor.
Like, okay, this is it. Like, let's both try to get some sleep and see what happens. So, I was in labor that whole night. Nothing really painful, like it didn't feel like anything, just a couple, like, you know, contractions in my uterus, but like, it didn't hurt or anything.
I'm like, okay, this isn't too bad. The next morning we woke up, Sandy called the doctor's office to let them know I was in labor like eight or 9:00 AM
Yeah. And the,
They told us to get in right away and we're like, no. We're not gonna do that. We didn't tell them that. I think we just said, yeah, whatever. And hung up.
Lisa: Good for you.
Donna: Yeah. And we stayed home that whole day. And then throughout the day, the contractions were really like, almost nonexistent. I do remember, I thought I'm like, maybe those are false or maybe, I don't know what's going on. And a friend of mine said, oh, that happened with somebody else for like four days.
I was like, oh my gosh, is this gonna go on for four days? So throughout the day they were pretty much nothing. They were nothing all day. And then by four o'clock in the afternoon, this is Thursday now, they really started to pick up and I went into the bath and I did some things. And then from four to about midnight, we labored at home.
They were full fledged, right? And then at that point, I don't know what made us actually decide to go. When, why did we decide now is the time. Do you remember what--
Sandy: Oh, I think we just had a sense, we both had a sense that it was time.
Donna: Contractions were coming pretty consistent. Yeah. But I remember Lisa you saying that like, labor's never linear or as linear as it sounds like, okay, for the first quarter, it's gonna be every 10 minutes, and then it's gonna be every two minutes. And it was just, it wasn't that. But I think we just had a sense that it was time.
Right. And this is midnight at this point? It's about 10.
Sandy: It was a little after 11, little after, because by the time we got to the hospital, it was midnight.
Laboring at Home
Lisa: Can we pause just before you get to the hospital? I just wanted to ask you, while you were laboring at home, do you remember, were there specific things you were doing to help you with those waves, the contractions?
Donna: I do remember, and I can't remember what they were. I did throw up a lot. Do you remember? I threw up a lot.
Sandy: Well, you,
Lisa: Yeah, you said like every five contractions in the written story.
Sandy: Yes. So you ate dinner?
Donna: I ate dinner.
Sandy: And then after you ate dinner, you started throwing up.
Donna: Yeah. Threw up. I do remember some things. I remember you helping me in some ways. I can't remember exactly what you did. It was, for me, a big blur. Sandy was much more, obviously, coherent. So he has a lot of different memories than I do.
Sandy: That day was a very challenging day. I think men grow up with the idea, okay, the first sign of contractions, rush off to the hospital. That's, all the shows tell you that, to do that. And so, but by the time, I remember, I was cooking dinner for that evening. And I just remember just feeling so stressed and I just was like, and I didn't have a really great sleep that previous night, the night that Donna had gone into labor.
And I just was like, I just stepped away and I was like, Donna, I have to go lay down. And I went and laid down and actually went to sleep for an hour or two. Cuz I was just, really kind of at that point, I kind of hit a wall and didn't know really what to do. So, then when I woke up, Donna was in the bath and things, and I was more rested then, and then I was able to get back on track.
Donna: This was late afternoon by this time.
Sandy: Oh, yeah. No, we're early evening now. Yeah.
Donna: Yeah. So from four o'clock to 12, it was full on labor with Sandy there, with me helping, and again, as my water never broke, so we're waiting for that. So we really have no, and this is the first time, and I'm not, it's not, it's painful, but I'm not doubling, like it's not that bad.
Going to the Hospital
So I don't even know where I am in this labor. Like I have no clue where I am. Right. The water hasn't broke, it's painful, but manageable. I think I walked down to the car. Right? Sandy drove, I had laid in the back seat, it was about a 20 minute drive at that time of night. Right. I think I moaned the whole way there.
Did I moan the whole way there?
Sandy: Yeah. There was moaning going on. We called my friend who met me at the hospital. So, I went and parked the car.
Donna: So Sandy went to go park the car and my friend helped me in the hospital. And by then I'm moaning and they bring me the wheelchair and whoever brought me in, was the nurse, whatever, she's like, oh my, you're really in pain. You must be having, you must be having a girl or something. She thinks she said that to me. You weren't there at the time cause you were parked in the car.
So, then they checked me in with my friend while Sandy was parking the car. And I don't really remember if, like, what happened. They obviously admitted me. I don't know when they told me my dilation. Was it, were you there when they told me?
Sandy: Yeah. I came and we sat down.
Fully Dilated on Arrival
Lisa: That's the triage room? Is that the triage room? Okay.
Donna: And they said that I was 10 centimeters dilated, which is fully dilated.
We, cause we had no idea. For all I know, I could be two centimeters. Right?
Lisa: Sure.
Donna: Like, I don't know. So we were obviously so happy about that. So they admitted us into the room, and I needed absolutely no medical intervention. I didn't even have an IV put in my wrist at all, and I didn't have any medication, nothing.
The nurse came in at one point and asked me about whether I wanted pain medication and I said no. And I remember her leaving, like, okay, well, what do I do now? It's, what's my job?
Lisa: They're not used to that.
Donna: Right.
Sandy: There was a lot of that going on, I think.
Donna: It was a lot and like, we're fine.
We're fine. And so then this is the only part that gets a little bit, Ooh. So our doctor shows up. So we get there a little after 12, I guess. And again, we gave birth at 2:40. So I only labored in the hospital for about two hours.
Doctor Arrives
Our doctor arrives--
And well, yeah, she arrived. She's not really impressed. And, we're looking for some direction, of course.
Well, first of all, she got mad at us for waking her up, that she had to come back to the hospital, she had just gotten home.
Lisa: Uh, keep that to yourself, lady.
Donna: Well, we called her at 8:00 AM like, so she knew. We called her office to tell her we're in labor. So had to know we were gonna give birth some time during that day. And they never called us to check in. Like
Sandy: They never checked with us.
Donna: If I were her, at five o'clock when I'm ready to leave, I would've called my patient to say, how are you doing?
So I, out of selfishness, figure out whether I should go home or not. She never checked in on us the whole day after we called them that morning. So
Sandy: She was quite, yeah, quite annoyed at having to come back.
Donna: So she was annoyed about that, and then, I didn't feel like I was making progress. And so we wanted, we knew that the gravity, standing up, squatting would be a way that we would wanna try to get, make some progress. And, she wouldn't help us.
Sandy: Yeah. We were like looking at her like, okay, what do we do now? And I actually said that to her, okay, so what do we do now?
And she said, oh, you're the experts. You know everything. You know everything. You'll do it your way, you do it your way. And we're like, okay, basically we want to, we really need some guidance here, cause we've never had a child before.
And, yeah. So I really had to kind of, with hat in hand, kind of just say, please help us,
And so I eventually gave birth, on my back. The way she wanted.
Right?
The doctor wanted, I apologize. Yeah. The doctor wanted, yeah.
Born En Caul
Donna: Yeah. But, again, the actual birth itself was fantastic.
I, again, I didn't even need an iv, I didn't rip, I didn't need a stitch. She just came right out in her sac, I didn't get to see it, unfortunately. But Sandy of course got to see it, and my friend who was with me got to see it.
Lisa: There's no picture? Oh no.
Donna: I know. We should have had my friend video.
Sandy: I was a little bit, you know, put off by the whole thing, it kind of entered into a surreal, kind of experience for me. And Donna was very like, I don't know if Donna remembers this, but she was wanting to please the doctor, because she kind of, well, you guys do it yourself. I think after that I kind of slipped back into mode of like, what the heck is going on? And Donna slipped into, I wanna please the doctor mode.
Donna: Well, I just wanna get this baby out.
Lisa: And well, and that's very common when we have oxytocin surging through our bloodstream, it often puts us into that mode, the fawn mode. Instead fight or flight, it's fawn. And we want all the love because, it's oxytocin being the love hormone, we just want everybody to along and,
Donna: I just wanted to have this baby.
Lisa: Right? Yeah. Yes, that too.
Sandy: Yeah.
After Birth and Hospital Stay
Donna: So then after she was born, like I said, the doctor cut the cord and actually, Issa had a very short cord.
Do you remember that? It was like three feet long. It was super short. So she, because we didn't want her to cut the cord for a while, for a few minutes. But she had to, because I don't think she would've even reached my chest. Do you remember that? The cord was that short.
So, immediately put her on my chest and I nursed her immediately. Right.
Yeah. And she took immediately to nursing. So, and yeah, that, so that was the actual birth part. And again, the next two days in the hospital were very challenging. It started off, I should have known, so this is now 2:40 in the morning.
Sandy: Um, the next morning the doctor did come in and apologize.
Donna: And said she was cranky or something. But so, after I gave birth though, I went to go take a shower and there was no hot water.
I took a cold shower after giving birth. Yeah.
It was not pleasant. It was not pleasant at all. And we wanted to leave like ASAP, but they insisted on all this testing, putting Issa in the incubator, all these things that we didn't even care about. And they made us do that. and,
Sandy: Yeah, very shortly after she was born, they put her in the incubator, the oven. The oven, what do they call that? The heat thing to get her temperature up.
We wanted her to stay with Donna, that would bring her core temperature up the most. But they took her and we said we wanted her right back, very shortly. And they took her for three hours. So, yeah. So that was kind of annoying.
Donna: Yeah. And then so that was,
Sandy: So we were just laying, we were laying there for three hours and of course couldn't get sleep and
Donna: right. And then, so that was Friday morning, early morning, and then all day Saturday was fine. I slept, Issa slept the whole night. We had a couple friends visit. And then Saturday night, Sandy went home to go get a good night's sleep. And I had run into some challenges, and I tried, I consulted the nurses, but I knew they weren't gonna be helpful, and they weren't. All they were gonna do was suggest that she go to the nursery and sleep, which I didn't want. There were three recommendations that they gave, which I knew they were gonna do, and none of 'em were acceptable to me.
One, put her in the nursery. Two, put a binky in her mouth. And then there was a third one, I can't remember what it was, but it was something else that I knew I wasn't gonna go for. So basically again, no help, on how I can get this baby to sleep and how I can get some sleep. So finally I had to call Sandy at 4:00 AM and say, I I need your help, please come back. I don't know what to do. And they're not helpful at all. So that was Saturday night. And then Sunday morning, we were like, we wanna leave. What can we do to leave? And somebody had said, they're not gonna let you go until later in the day, cuz then they can bill for a full day.
So then that's exactly what happened. They didn't let us go till Sunday at like, at six or seven o'clock at night. So even though we were primed and ready to go, we could have gone Saturday afternoon, probably, been happy. I didn't require any stitches or anything, so I didn't need any medical care.
I didn't need any medical care. They did all this like unnecessary testing for Issa and then, that was it. And we still got a bill for $15,000 for insurance. Which,
Lisa: Gotta be kidding. I don't know why saying gotta be kidding cuz happens all the time and it's,
Donna: For nothing. I mean, for a couple hearing tests and like, again, I didn't even have an IV or any medication or a cesarean or anything, and it was $15,000. Sandy, being from Canada, couldn't believe it. He was like, oh, this'll cost us like $2,000. Of course our insurance covered it,, but I just couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it.
Lisa: Yeah. Did they tell you at all why they took her away from you for so long?
Sandy: Right after the birth, they said her temperature was down and they wanted to bring her temperature up. So that's why they took her.
Donna: And then we said an hour, but it ended up being like hours.
Sandy: Yeah. We said we wanted her back in an hour, but they, yeah, it was a bit close to three hours by the time they got back.
Lisa: I'm sorry that happened.
Donna: Yeah, so the medical side was not great. The actual birth itself and all that and her delivery was perfect. But being in the hospital and the medical,
Sandy: They kept coming in and waking us up as well that,
Donna: That's very disruptive to rest. Yeah. Bringing me slippers I didn't ask for,
Sandy: And then waking us up to ask, do you want slippers? No, we wanna sleep.
Lisa: Right. Please let me sleep. Can't you ask that another time when I'm not trying to sleep?
Donna: I will say that I have heard other parents say that they appreciate that level of attention, that not everyone was as independent as we are. Some people didn't even, don't even wanna leave the hospital. They're so scared to be alone with their baby, right? So some parents have said, I really appreciate, I wanted the nurses there all the time. So I get that. But we were not one of them. We wanted them to leave us alone.
Lisa: Yeah.
I also just want to voice that I'm glad that your OB apologized later, and I'm really sorry that you were treated that way so close to this sacred time of your baby's birth, in the midst of that. And I feel like I've gotten to know you well enough to have a sense of you are not people to, I don't know, have created a dynamic that asked for that in any way. Not that anybody asks for that.
Donna: We weren't pushy at all.
Lisa: Yeah. I mean do you think like there had been an interaction at all that predisposed her to treating you like that? I wouldn't think so.
Donna: It goes to what Sandy was saying, and what I was saying is that she's this beloved miracle doctor, and she had no role. If the way we did it, she had no role, and she didn't like that. She's used to being the hero. She's saving every baby that's premature, has a cord around their neck or whatever. And everyone's like, if I was a doctor, you'd be my dream case. I didn't have to do anything. I like Yeah. the baby. But I think that just kind of wasn't good enough for her.
Reflections on OB Experience
Sandy: But Lisa, it was becoming apparent, as we, like Donna mentioned earlier, as we got closer to the birth that energetically probably we weren't a really great fit. And, yeah. So she was starting to feel that we were not just gonna listen to her, just, you know, worship her, worship her, and, do everything that she said and, to the nth degree, that we were like, like Donna said, a little bit, perhaps a little more independent and wanted to have more, it was a really big focus of us for us to have a natural birth. And that was not something that was really the priority for her, I don't think.
Donna: And of course, you know, I think you called it, Lisa, and everybody else called it, at 38 weeks, she started to talk to me about when to induce. It's like, give it a rest. I said we were not gonna talk about that until 42 weeks. We're not even broaching that topic until 42 weeks.
Sandy: Yeah.
Donna: But 38 weeks she started.
Sandy: Yeah, she started pressuring us to get on that path as well. So we were starting to realize that wasn't perhaps a good thing.
Donna: We really had to stand our ground. And I guess she probably perceived that as difficult or uncooperative.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. They're used to their patients just being okay, you're doctor, know best, whatever you say, doctor.
So, yeah, that makes sense. I commend you for standing up for what you felt was best and what wanted and preferred and felt like was healthiest for you and your baby.
Donna: That did happen not without the pushback and not without the terrible hospital experience afterwards, but she's, it's done. No, looking back, if I would've known then what I would've known now, we would've, obviously, gone for the home birth from the very beginning with a midwife. But, you know, we didn't know. You know, I was old.
I was old by pregnancy standards, we didn't have a lot of time, we didn't have a lot of knowledge about this, we didn't have the confidence. But, if I would've known, we would've just not even stepped foot into the OB's office, probably.
En Caul Details
Lisa: Oh, a fairly random question just popped into my head. you happen to remember, when Issa was born en caul, they take surgical scissors to open it? Did they just- did
Sandy: She actually took, I think she took her nail, her finger, and ripped at it. And did it that way.
Donna: I didn't see a thing. So he had,
Lisa: Sure.
Sandy: Yeah, I know, I do remember that. She took her finger and ripped at it.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah. Okay.
Probably over a chux pad cuz then it's like fluid going everywhere.
Yeah.
Donna: So how long was Issa out before like,
Sandy: She was like, I would say three quarters of the way when she did yeah. Just barely out when the doctor did that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Donna: Is there any like, it's supposed to be like, very rare, I know, but like medically it, it doesn't mean anything, right.
That might have been another reason why I didn't rip or whatever too, right. If she was lubricated the whole time in the sac, right?
Lisa: Perhaps, yeah. It could be, theoretically yeah.
Sandy: Yeah. It's like there's not parts coming out. There's just a, a
Donna: It's smooth.
Lisa: Yeah. That makes sense.
Sandy: It's a, it's kind of a circular thing that's coming out..
Lisa: Right. Yeah. Yeah, we hardly ever see it in hospital births. It's less rare in home births and birthing centers, and that's largely because in hospitals, almost always artificially rupture the membranes in the pushing stage, if they haven't spontaneously ruptured by then, almost always.
So that's especially cool that you had en caul birth in a hospital.
Yeah.
Advice and Reflection
Great. Well, is there anything else you wanted to share about your journey in parenting since then, or anything?
Donna: I guess the first couple weeks, again, I didn't have any like stitches or anything, so I was quite lucky. I remember some couple things that helped, like, you know, a wrap around the stomach to try to kind of keep things in, that was very helpful.
Mm-hmm.
But I think I recovered pretty quickly. Nursing was not a problem. Issa latched right away. The only issue, slight issue we had was she had a little bit of thrush, like when she was three weeks old. But other than that, nursing, quite lucky there too. Never had to bring in a lactation consultant or anything.
I think I went to a couple La Leche groups or whatever, for information and support, but never had any issues with that. So that was good.
Sandy: Well, probably, I would recommend for people to start their baby on the bottle as soon as possible, if they're showing that they're natural latchers, because what would happen then is that later on, that became a big issue because every time Donna left,
Donna: She wouldn't take the bottle.
Sandy: She wouldn't take the bottle. And then it was quite, it was kind of stressful for both her and me then, to be home while Donna was going to a class or whatever. And it was stressful to Donna too, because Donna couldn't leave for any more than three or four hours at a time. When did we introduce the bottle, like three weeks? Is that what we?
Donna: It was at least two to three weeks.
Sandy: Yeah.
Donna: I don't think we introduced it until we pretty well had to and then, that was too late then.
Lisa: Often, yeah, what we lactation professionals usually recommend is wait until breastfeeding's going well, which is usually like the first two to four weeks, but then to introduce a bottle before six to eight weeks because often if you wait longer that, many babies will just reject it and it'll be lot harder to introduce it.
Sandy: Yeah. I think we started it before six to eight weeks, for sure.
Donna: Yeah, we did I think like three or four.
Lisa: Every baby's different.
Sandy: Yeah. But she just wouldn't have it. So, everything worked out fine in the end, but again, it just added to the adjustment, because Donna was less independent.
I was less independent because, of course, Donna was on a tether then, because we couldn't let her go too far for too long.
Donna: I remember Sandy and Issa just like following me around Brooklyn at work, meeting me in different places.
Sandy: Yeah. Like, we'd have to go down to the university.
Donna: But we were lucky that we could do it, you know? We were quite lucky.
Sandy: Yeah. Yeah.
I didn't have a full-time job. I guess if we had a full-time job, we would've started earlier or whatever, but yeah. That's that, I probably would recommend that, to start as soon as possible to get them on the bottle.
I'm Trying to think if there was something else. Oh, so Issa was a very light sleeper, and so we finally started using, what we use, pink noise, now. You can use white noise or whatever you wanna use.
We use pink cuz we did the research and pink noise was supposedly the best.
Lisa: That's what I always always recommend and what Bryan and I sleep to. Yeah.
Sandy: And, but she was a really light sleeper, so that was a bit challenging. So, and we still use the pink noise to this day. Cuz now, of course, I can't go to sleep without pink noise now. So Yeah. But she can't either. Yeah. Yeah.
So then you can have guests over, you can have, you know, things can happen. You can do the dishes while she's sleeping. But before that, we were just like, again, we were just, walking on eggshells the whole time, we couldn't have anybody come during her nap time.
And, it was just, again, you just wanna make your life as smooth as possible. And pink noise is just one of those things that, you know, that allows you to do that. Yeah. And we would've taken her out more. The first month, it felt like-
Donna: trapped.
Sandy: Yeah. That we were on, that we were, you know, when you're in jail for, what's that term called when you're in-
Lisa: House arrest?
Sandy: House arrest. We felt, the first month, it felt like we were under house arrest. I mean, we did not leave. And that's just not healthy. So, get out as much as you can, Yeah. Because looking back, the first three months were challenging, but they were challenging a lot because of some of the things that we were a little late getting to, so yeah. That would've got us out more and give us maybe more perspective.
when you're, all those things that I'm talking about are, they're all limiting your perspective and everything becomes so big cuz you're all in this little small space together in New York. And it's a whole new experience and you have a lot of resistance, mental resistance, around what's happening because you used to have so much freedom and now you don't.
And if you can make it as easy for yourselves as possible, then do so. Yeah.
Baby Wearing
Lisa: I just wanted to ask if you did any baby wearing? Is that,
Donna: Oh, yes. Yes.
Lisa: something you did?
Donna: Ergo. We bought all different types. We bought like, the Ergo is what worked the best, but what's the other one called?
It's like a, it looks like almost like a hammock.
Lisa: a ring sling, maybe?
Donna: Yeah, a ring sling. We had that. It was, we had, that's what it was.
But no, we Ergo'd that kid till she was two years old.
Sandy: But she didn't like to look, she always wanted to be facing out.
So, but when I turned her in, she fought against it for a couple of minutes and then she would go to sleep. But, yeah, we Ergo'd her right up until, well, she was actually, we were still in Western Mass when she, we stopped.
Donna: Yeah. That's two years old too.
Sandy: Yeah. Almost two and a half. When I stopped.
Lisa: Wow. You have better backs than I do.
I was like 14, I did it about 14 months, and I was like, oh, no the carrier, I tried several different ones, and I just like, I can't do this anymore.
Donna: She likes to be close to us, like she didn't like the stroller as much.
She wanted to be, she wanted the Ergo.
Sandy: What was harder on our backs was that she didn't like to crawl. And she liked to hold our hands. So at 11 months old she was hold-
Donna: Doing the hold, the hand holding, right?
Sandy: She would, anytime she wanted to move, she would hold her hands up, we would bring her up, and we would walk her to the next place, and then put her down. And that was harder on our backs at that point.
Donna: Because she didn't walk independently until she was 16 months old. So that was five months of doing that.
Sandy: Yeah. That was a happy day--
Lisa: That's a long time.
Sandy: when she started walking. People have often said, oh, I'm not looking forward to it, we were so happy. That was a big game changer for us when she started walking around on her own.
Donna: We just spent our five months hunched over, her holding our fingers, walking.
Lisa: Ow. So the Ergo was better, Yeah, and I have friends who shifted to back carries and carried for like years and I'm like, that's awesome, more power to you, I love that you that. And, that didn't quite work for me.
Final Advice
Great. any final tips or insights, of wisdom you'd like to leave our listeners with? You just gave some good ones.
Donna: Well, also, I'm sure this is one that everyone's heard, that today's solution's tomorrow's problem.
Lisa: Yeah.
Donna: You've heard that, Lisa, right? But, And it's true. But you do what you need to do to get through that day and then deal with it later. Like, so, for example, if nursing is a way to get your kid to sleep, then do it, but just know that in three weeks it's gonna be completely dependent on nursing, and you're gonna have to figure that out. But you do whatever you can to just figure it out and stay sane, but definitely today's solution, tomorrow's problem.
Yeah. Or giving them a certain stuffy to soothe them, then when you lose the stuffy.
Yeah. Yeah. All heck breaks loose.
Lisa: Yeah. They keep us on our toes.
Donna: Yeah. That was something that people, that someone said to me that was like, it just so, it rang true.
Sandy: Yeah, and don't be resistant to, you are resistant to change. In every step of the way, the parents, they're like, they finally get into a groove and and you can see that the child wants to change, and you resist it, and you resist it, and you resist it, and you do everything you can so that the child, but at the end of the day it's just a lot of waste of energy. Because, when the change happens, then you are able to find a new groove, which is better than the old groove.
So if you can just listen to what your child wants and parent the child that you have, instead of the child that you want to have, you can really, make it easier for your child and for yourselves because the new groove is always gonna be better than the old groove, generally speaking. As long as you're,
Donna: And the child changes so quickly, there's no point in getting worked up about something. Oh, the kid won't eat peas or whatever. Well, in two months the kid will eat peas.
Sandy: And that goes right up, and as they get older too, we remember Donna and I had a lot of resistance around her doing her nap, because that's when we would get our nap, as well. And we really fought long and hard for her to keep her nap. And she was getting more and more disgruntled about this and then finally, we were like, well, she's at the age where we can nap and she could probably watch her children's programs and we'll just nap, you know? And she was, and she, you can come to the bedroom door if you really need us, Issa, and that's what happened. She watched her children's programs, we napped, and we still do that to this day.
Donna: We're old parents, you know what I mean? Yeah, like, I'm 50 and Sandy's 56, almost 57. We have a seven year old. So yeah, there's definitely some pros and cons to being an older parent.
Sandy: Yeah.
Donna: Definitely some. And one of 'em, one of the cons is energy level, that's for sure. Yeah.
like, there's a reason why biologically people have children when they're in their twenties, right. Not when they're 40 and 50.
Sandy: But in today's society, we don't have to carry Issa from cave to cave, you know, and outrun the saber tooth tiger.
So we, yeah, in this day and age, I would certainly recommend if, as long as you're physically fit, to have a child at a later stage. I see us kind of as a blend of a young parent and a grandparent. We know which battles to fight and which battles not to.
But at the same time, some would say, I remember my father was saying that we gave her everything she wanted, but at the same time, we also know she has to eat her, for instance, her veggies. She has to eat her veggies before she gets dessert.
So these are the things that are important to us, whereas, younger parents might fight the wrong battles, so. I think it worked. It's worked well.
Meditation Practice
Lisa: Last thing I'd like to ask you is, in terms of your meditation practice, was just curious, at your daughter's age now, do you meditate together as family, or are you teaching about those skills?
Donna: Yeah, great question. So obviously the first couple years, I think Sandy and I's meditation practice definitely had a change and it's still, I
Lisa: I bet
Donna: But we, Sandy and I still meditate daily and we are introducing it to Issa, we don't meditate so much with her, but we have a little family group on Sunday mornings with another family about meditation and practice and things like that.
And she really loves it. So that's kind of like, we call it Sunday school, Bible study, but it's not really Bible study. So, she's definitely introduced to it. She's actually said a few times over the past few months, I wanna be a Buddha. I wanna be a Buddha. So that's her life goal is to be a Buddha.
Lisa: That's so cute. I love it.
Donna: Now is she doing her things to become a Buddha? Well, that's another question.
Lisa: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to reconnect and share your story this many years later, particularly, special and treasured to me.
Sandy: Yeah. Lots of gaps.
Donna: Yeah. I'm gonna have to go back and read that email that we sent to our class. But I, like I said, looking at it this many years later, the important things, the salient things that are the ones that we remember the most, obviously. Right. So, yeah, thank you for having us.
Sandy: Yeah. Thank you Lisa.