What happens when you grow your family from an only child to two children? Today Danuta & Jacek share two birth stories -- one hospital birth with an obstetrician and one birthing center birth with a midwife, both so fast they barely make it to the birthplace in time. They compare and contrast the two birthing environments and care provider models, which will be helpful for anyone trying to make these choices before or during pregnancy. I realized that last week’s and this week’s episode titles both center on grief. Grief is a necessary process in any life change, and all kinds of grief can be challenging. Last week you heard about grief of losing a parent whereas this week you’ll hear a mother describe the surprising sadness she experienced toward the end of her second pregnancy as well as into postpartum in the transition from having just one child to focus on to having to divide attention between two. You’ll hear how important support was for Danuta as she expresses gratitude for the ways in which her doula and fellow moms normalized and validated her feelings of grief along the way.
Episode Topics:
Research in 1st pregnancy to learn about the U.S. birthing environment (since they had moved from South Africa) - birth classes, books, hiring a doula
Practical ways their doulas provided optimal support in both pregnancies/labors
Compare/contrast giving birth in a hospital (Lenox Hill) the first time vs. birthing center in NJ second time, they like the fact that her daughter could be present in a birthing center
Compare/contrast her experience with OB care vs midwifery care
1st birth story:
Water breaks as first sign of labor, things intensify fast
Call doula
Laboring in shower with doula Raychel providing physical comfort measures
Vocalization/chanting as an instinctive pain-coping tool
Arrival at the hospital just in time for pushing
Details on car ride to get there
Pushing stage description
Breast crawl after birth
Less than optimal breastfeeding support in hospital (pressure to pump too early, rotating lactation consultants giving inconsistent advice)
Doula’s postpartum support
Carpal tunnel syndrome this 2nd time due to breastfeeding positions
Uterine afterpains description -- much worse 2nd time than 1st
2nd birth story:
Water breaks as first sign of labor (again), but one week earlier than last time
Gets in car soon thereafter to head to birthing center with daughter in tow
Jacek has trouble finding birthing center entrance
Pushing in parking lot, midwife runs out to help her
Arrival inside birthing center just in time to give birth
Doula arrives
Their daughter watches her sister being born
Feeling much more tired right after birth this time
How hiring a doula the 2nd time was just as important this time -- particularly to help normalize the grief she felt in going from being a mom of one to having to divide attention between two children, also learning more about holistic approaches from this second doula
More details about this sadness & grief process (prenatal & postpartum)
Dynamics of the pandemic and how that might have played into the grief
More compare/contrast hospital vs birthing center -- early discharge pros & cons, benefit of having a nurse come do a home visit soon after birth but having to go to the pediatrician sooner
Doula Raychel and host/childbirth educator Lisa Taylor with Danuta, Jacek & Amelia at her first birthday party
Resources:
Find NYC or western Long Island doula: Astoria Doula Collective
Raychel Franzen (doula for Danuta’s first baby’s birth)
Stephanie Sauer Pasternak (Bergen Doula, doula for Danuta’s second baby’s birth)
Avalon Midwives/Birthing Center (Morristown/West Caldwell, NJ)
Breast crawl video (UNICEF)
The Second Baby Book by Sarah Ockwell-Smith*
Chelsea Method online prenatal & postpartum program
Lotus Birthing: Is It Safe? (Mama Natural)
Delayed Cord Clamping info at end of Episode 19 (start at 52:32)
Common Objections to Delayed Cord Clamping - What’s the Evidence Say? (Lamaze)
“90 Seconds to Change the World” - TedX video on the benefits of delayed cord clamping
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Hi Danuta. And Jacek welcome to the birth matters podcast. So glad to have you here today.
[00:00:05] Danuta: Hi, Lisa. Thanks for having us.
[00:00:08] Jacek: Thanks for having us.
[00:00:09] Lisa: It's good to see you again. Would you like to just introduce yourselves, let us know where you are in your parenting journey. If you'd like to share your occupation.
[00:00:19] Danuta: I'm Danuta and this is my husband Jacek. We have two children. One is two years old, so she's 28 months. And our second born is two months old at the moment. I'm a stay-at-home mom. I have been since I gave birth to Emilia. I used to work before that, but obviously once I had her, I felt like I wanted to stay at home with her and see each developmental stage. And just to be a part of the whole thing.
[00:00:49] Jacek: Yeah. And both our children are girls, by the way. Yeah. So Danuta's very happy having two girls.
[00:00:57] Even though they are a handful sometimes, it's amazing to have two girls. And I'm a cloud solution architect at Microsoft based out of New York City. But these days, I mean, I've actually always worked from home pretty much, most of the time anyway. So nothing much has changed the situation.
[00:01:18] Lisa: And you lived in long Island city when you gave birth the first time, but then before the second one you moved, right?
[00:01:26] Jacek: We're now in Cedar Grove, New Jersey.
[00:01:30] Lisa: Great. All right. Well, why don't we start off by sharing a little bit about each of your pregnancies and the ways that you prepared for a healthy pregnancy, for labor, for birth, for parenthood, any and all of those things, and maybe compare the different ways that you prepared with each pregnancy.
[00:01:48] Danuta: So for our first birth, first pregnancy, really, you know, everything was new to us. So we did what everyone else probably does. You Google everything, you research things, you try to understand what's going on with your body. You ask questions with the gynecologist or midwife or whatever you choose. And things just got a bit overwhelming.
[00:02:07] I was a bit scared and being new to the United States as well, you know, not knowing and understanding the whole healthcare system. We came from South Africa, so everything was new to us here. So I did a bit more reading and I happened to come across. I think it was a-- is it a documentary, the business of birth or something, or
[00:02:25] Lisa: The Business of Being Born, I bet?
[00:02:27] Danuta: [The Business of Being Born]. And I just watched it out of interest and it started to open my eyes to things and to see the more natural side of --how both can be more natural and it doesn't have to be you know, something stressful and, you know, so I became interested in that and that's how I then Googled birth classes.
[00:02:47] And I came across Birth Matters with you, Lisa. And yeah, I think I just, just attending the classes just taught me so much about what I could experience in childbirth and how I could take control of the situation, you know, to an extent, obviously, depending on what my body was going to do, but you know how to make things a bit easier when labor came around.
[00:03:11] I also started reading a lot of books and try to prepare my mind. So I read Ina May Gaskin's books, the midwife books, and, you know, that really helped me during the whole birth process the first time around, especially because I got into the right mindset. From reading just other people's experiences on how you can experience a hypnobirth. I didn't know, at that time what hypnobirthing was, but I think somehow I just picked it up from what those women wrote. And when I was giving birth to Emilia, I just focused on certain things, certain imagery, and it really helped me to get through the whole labor and to just focus on what was coming. And I think that made the whole situation a lot easier for me to handle, because I was very calm the first time round. Now, the second time around, I'll get into that a bit later, but it wasn't as calm. Let's put it that way. And yeah, I had a doula as well. Doula Raychel Franzen.
[00:04:11] She is amazing. She's the best, best doula you could have.
[00:04:15] Lisa: So many of my students have loved her. Yeah.
[00:04:18] Danuta: She really helped you know, with resources, with everything. Just preparing me even just for the labor itself. That's my two year old, so cute. So Raychel really prepared me the first time round when she, especially, she really helped a lot when I was in labor because I didn't know what was going on essentially.
[00:04:40] So she made it helped to get me dressed and to get me out of the house, because my first labor was really fast. I mean, my water broke at 8:30 at night and things just progressed really quickly. I mean, from what we learned in the birth class, it's, you should lie down, relax, you know, just have some food and get energized and rest.
[00:04:56] So I try to do that and it just really wasn't working for me because everything was going so fast. And I didn't realize that at the time. So I thought, well, I've got a long couple, couple of days, hours ahead. And not realizing that I was pretty much ready to push at that stage. So Raychel really, really helped a lot to keep me calm and just to actually get me out of the house so that I didn't give birth in the taxi. I mean, I don't know what your experience was with preparing for birth--
[00:05:27] Jacek: Similar to what you said. We probably, if we hadn't come across all the alternatives. More natural childbirth, midwives, doulas, all of that, we would have ended up just following what the OB GYN would have told us, because that's what we even grew up with.
[00:05:43] When you're new parents, your experiences are based on your own parents. That's how our parents gave birth. OB GYN in the hospital. And we would have just trusted that person and assumed that is the only option. And I think especially once we attended the birth classes and started watching videos and books, it opened up, "Oh, I've still got options."
[00:06:05] And that's how it's kind of evolved from the first birth to the second birth. We try to have more control of everything and a better environment. Maybe on the third we'll go even further.
[00:06:19] Lisa: I'm curious. Danuta you said that having moved from another country, that is part of what prompted you to do a lot of research.
[00:06:28] Do you think you still would have done a lot of research if you had given birth in South Africa?
[00:06:32] Danuta: I think I would have probably done a little bit of research into childbirth, just to know, you know, what's going on with the pregnancy and just typical curiosity that any new mother would have, but I don't think it would have gotten as in-depth, as it did being over here in the United States. And I think that I probably would not have found such good resources as I did here. I probably wouldn't have come across the documentary. I wouldn't have had as good birth classes as yours. Definitely not. I don't think those resources are all available.
[00:07:04] And I think in South Africa, just judging from a lot of friends and family who I've seen giving birth in South Africa. A lot of them just opt for C-sections just because. You know, so I think that's comes from fear from not being able to control what's happening to your body or not knowing. I think it's, they see it as that's the easiest solution.
[00:07:26]Which is fine if you, if you want that. But I think that they may have chosen otherwise if they had had, you know, the resources available to have made a different choice.
[00:07:37] Jacek: The C-section rate is very high in South Africa as well. And we'd also had parents influencing us and you just go, you know, the parents had a certain experience. They would probably go with that as well. Whereas when we moved here, you were all alone. And we kind of had to chart our own course with a lot of these type of life decisions.
[00:08:00] Lisa: Great. Well, any other things you wanted to touch on before we go into the birth stories?
[00:08:05] Danuta: Well, I guess with preparation, I can discuss how that differed in the second birth. The second birth, I was very much prepared from the first birth. I mean, it's not such a big age gap between the two, so all the information was really there. You know, it's still stuck in my head, so I kind of knew where I was going, but this time around, I could build onto that and.
[00:08:26] Yeah. I tried to read up on hypnobirthing. I didn't really get into that. I didn't get a chance really to read because you know, having a toddler running around, you don't have much time for all that stuff. So what really, really helped me was the preparation that I got from doula Raychel.
[00:08:44] She prepared me to leave the house and I remember exactly what she did to get me out of the house. And that's not what I would have known for my first birth. Had I not experienced that with her. So for the second birth, I knew that if my water was to break the same way that it did in the first birth, I knew that my second doula which is Stephanie Pasternack from Bergen Doula.
[00:09:05] I knew that she was not going to be coming to our house because my first labor was four hours long. And there was a high chance that it would also go quickly and she wouldn't be able to get here from Tenafly, you know, to Cedar Grove it's quite far. So I kind of prepared myself for that situation.
[00:09:22] So I kind of had like a change of clothes ready. I had extra underwear, like socks, everything in one pile, a big maxi pad for the leaks of the water gushing through like just everything ready to, to just put it in the car and leave. And that really helped me because it saved a lot of time in the end.
[00:09:41]So everything was prepped and ready to go. And it did happen that way. My water broke, same thing, at night. And one hour and 20 minutes later, I was holding my second one in my arms. And that was just such a fast process. That I'm really glad we had prepared in advance for it. I would have probably given birth in the car, like almost like the first time around.
[00:10:05] Lisa: And what about, your different choices in birth places? Do you want to talk about that and the type of care provider?
[00:10:10] Danuta: Yeah. So the first time round we gave birth at Lenox Hill with a gynecologist. And that experience for me at the time was really quite stressful for multiple reasons, just all the tests and everything that you have to do.
[00:10:25]Yeah, I think it was an experience that I don't want to go back to. And second time around, I guess, because we had a toddler, I didn't know what to do with her having no family in the States and being a stay at home mom, I always looked after her so I didn't have a nanny or someone I knew or could trust.
[00:10:42] And having all our friends back in New York, all over in Long Island City, and Astoria, I didn't know anybody in Cedar Grove. So I had that dilemma of like, what do I do with our firstborn. Going with the birthing center was really a great option because they allow you to bring anyone you'd like, so you can bring your children in with you and they can be a part of that whole process.
[00:11:03] And that's really what caught my attention. And I thought, well, because the first birth went so great, I mean, everything progressed well, I didn't have any interventions. I was probably, you know, a good candidate for a birth center birth with a midwife. So, I was a little scared to do the home birth at the time.
[00:11:21] So it was baby steps, I guess, from the hospital to the birthing center. And maybe if we have a third, I think that'll be the next step; we'll be at home because now I know what we can do and what I'm capable of. And I think, you know, I don't think I'll make it in time to a birthing center.
[00:11:38] Lisa: Yeah. I really thought you might choose a home birth the second time after how quickly the first one went, but I get it. I totally get it. Yeah.
[00:11:45] Danuta: I mean, the second time round, I really liked the idea of a midwife and a birthing center because of how relaxed I could feel. Every time I went into a gynecologist appointment, I felt like, oh gosh, what's next? Am I going to be-- especially closer to the birth date. I was like, "Am I going to be pushed to do something, to get induced?"
[00:12:03] I was so scared of that happening. Whereas with the midwife, I knew it wasn't going to happen. So I was very relaxed throughout and appointments were always on time. I went to the Avalon Midwives. So there was just literally no stress for us. We would just go in and come out. And that's really amazing when you have a toddler because you know, what do you do with them when you have appointments?
[00:12:23] They can only hang out for so long. And just having Emilia there with, you know, from the beginning until the end so that she could see the whole process and be a whole part of it. I think that made such a difference for us, for how stressful the bond for her accepting a new baby into the family -- I think she just took everything in such a mature way and she understood everything.
[00:12:44] So I think that really helps to include her the second time around. And if we have a third, then I think that'll just be amazing to have the whole family all at home. And to feel like confidence and relaxed that nothing's going to go wrong and it's going to be okay to do it at home.
[00:13:04] And did you find with your prenatal visits with your midwives, that they spent more time, that your appointments lasted longer than when you were working with an OB?
[00:13:14] So they didn't really last longer in that sense, but I do think that they were more, in-depth, more informative and information I got back when I asked questions was definitely a lot more detailed and you know, put my mind at ease and they also brought things up with me that maybe the gynecologist wouldn't have brought up with me so that I could understand things.
[00:13:36] And obviously going to a midwife it's totally different from an OB/GYN. And so I had to learn what it was like going to a midwife and that there aren't as many scans and there aren't as many, you know, tests and things that need to be done. So you kind of have to get used to not being able to see the baby inside.
[00:13:56] I think the whole overall experience was amazing because I felt like my questions were answered and not just simply brushed aside or, you know, extra interventions put on me unnecessarily.
[00:14:10] Jacek: The OB/GYN was always stressful. I mean, you have to wait in the sitting room for an hour.
[00:14:18] Danuta: And then all the testing, like the monitoring.
[00:14:21] Jacek: All the tests, the reaction was always like "Ooooh, this could be a problem," and, "ooooh, be careful of this, watch out for this." And you never felt that ease. And the last thing you want late in the pregnancy is stress after they did reach that point. Whereas the midwife center was completely opposite.
[00:14:40] And when there's something they said, "That's normal, that's normal," not, "Oh, we have to monitor this because you could have a big baby or this pressure's not right." Or something. You're constantly worried.
[00:14:55] Lisa: Yeah. Well, and it makes sense when you think about the fact that OB-GYNs are trained to help support high risk pregnancies and labors and births. And so they tend to look for a problem because that's their expertise, you know, whereas midwives are more trained to work with. Low-risk healthy pregnancies, where it's very unlikely that any problems will arise. So they, it's just a very different mindset in general. It's not black and white at all across those professions, but that's a general tendency we find due to the difference in the way they're trained and the people that they serve.
[00:15:31] Danuta: Completely, I agree with that. And I do think that my first pregnancy was maybe seen as high risk when it really shouldn't have been. If I'd been with a midwife, then it wouldn't have been seen as a high risk pregnancy.
[00:15:44] I was put on high-risk for like, I dunno, dilation issues or something like I was dilating too quickly or something and, you know, just traveling, you know, on the subway and everything. The gynecologist was a bit worried about that. So that I understand, but they were like other things that were piled on top of that unnecessarily that I genuinely don't think were issues.
[00:16:04] But at the time you do feel like, "Oh, this is a big problem." And do you have to start researching? And then you start stressing about it all.
[00:16:12] Jacek: All those appointments having to go to another center and extra tests. I mean, all the travel when you're like seven or eight months pregnant and having to go to two appointments a week for second opinions. And it was like, it was very odd.
[00:16:31] Danuta: Actually, I think that it does a lot for your mental health as well when you're with a midwife, because I felt so much more able to do things this time around, even though it should be harder because it's hard on your body to carry a second pregnancy, I think, and I just felt like I could, I was on my feet until the last moment I was putting Emilia to bed when my water broke.
[00:16:52] So I was still able to do things on my, I was pretty positive up until that point. I don't think I would have been if I went with the gynecologist.
[00:17:03] Lisa: Yeah, because you weren't feeling like a sick patient, you were feeling like a healthy, strong woman, right? That's what it sounds like.
[00:17:10] Danuta: Empowerment, truthfully. I think that's what it is. It's that sense of empowerment. That you can do it and your body is capable.
[00:17:20] Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, is that a good time to go into, I know you're neither of your birth stories is very long, but as much detail as you'd like to provide of the short time you spent in labor, I'd love to hear about that.
[00:17:36] Danuta: Yeah. So the first one. So my water broke and I was just laboring in the shower.
[00:17:41] Lisa: How many weeks were you?
[00:17:43] Danuta: It was actually 39 and six. So she was on time. So I was waiting for Raychel to come and she helped quite a lot with some back work for me. Cause I had a lot of pain in my lower back. She just helped us to get us out of the house.
[00:17:57] Jacek: And the main thing is, I mean, when your water broke. You know, going to the birth class and hearing, "yes, take your time, relax and have dinner..."
[00:18:05]We're not going to blame you, Lisa, for making us prep dinner while we were...
[00:18:10] Lisa: I make no promises. Remember how I said huge range of normal, but usually it is a long time.
[00:18:19] Jacek: We called the doula she's also like, she also said, "Yeah, have dinner and take your time, let me know." And I start counting the minutes between contractions.
[00:18:29] Danuta: We try to count, but then we were just like, "don't count." I just told them to stop pushing those buttons.
[00:18:34] Jacek: And then I was panicking. I think we started packing and everything and calling Raychel to come straight to us because I need hands. You know, we weren't that prepared with I thought, you know, your water breaks... We'll have a few hours to get everything packed up and ready to go. But you were screaming that you needed an epidural right now, after about 20 minutes of contractions
[00:18:58] Lisa: And she lives in Brooklyn, I believe. Right. So it probably took a bit for her to get to you. I don't know if she was driving or.
[00:19:07] Danuta: I wouldn't have known cause I was just in pain.
[00:19:09] Jacek: I tried to help as much with all the pain management techniques on your lower back, all of this, but then Danuta swatted me away and said I'm hopeless.
[00:19:19] Danuta: I didn't say that!
[00:19:21] Jacek: You kind of locked yourself up in the bathroom and stood in the dark shower,
[00:19:27] Lisa: the labor cave!
[00:19:28] Danuta: I just chased him out. I said, "Just leave me alone." I just retreated into the dark shower by myself and I was just doing the chants.
[00:19:38]Jacek: And then eventually Raychel came and took over helping Danuta in the shower, just getting her changed and ready to go to the hospital.
[00:19:45] Danuta: Yeah. Raychel was a lifesaver. Raychel's hands have magic in them. [I was having] lower back labor. It was a miracle really.
[00:19:53] Lisa: And can I ask Danuta: when you said you were doing chants, do, are you inclined to share, did you have certain affirmations or phrases or mantras that you were saying?
[00:20:04] Danuta: Not really. It wasn't like any words, anything that made sense, really, because I'd watched a lot of YouTube videos of other women doing it.
[00:20:10] So I was like, let me try this. And they do say to relax your jaw, that relaxes everything in your pelvis. I don't know how, but I did it and it worked. So I just sort of making a sound. Like they say to moo, but I felt silly doing that, especially cause we lived in an apartment block and I didn't want the neighbors to think, you know, there's something crazy going on with me. Like say, ah, like just trying to get it up, just breathe through it all and just remain calm. And it really, really helped a lot. When we got to the hospital, the nurses were really slow and they wanted to put me in the, what is the room that you initially go into? Triage.
[00:20:46] And Raychel was like, "No, you've got to prepare the room to deliver." And everyone, the whole team is like running to get the room ready. And they were so surprised at the end. They said, "Well, we didn't know you were that far along because you were so calm with everything." So, you know, that was nice to hear.
[00:21:04] You know, first time around, I guess I felt that it would be a lot more stressful than that. And I think I just wanted to be by myself in the shower just to process what was happening and, you know, four hours is quick, but I think it's good enough time to be able to process what's going on with your body.
[00:21:20] Whereas the second time around it wasn't that easy to process what was happening because it was so quick. And I didn't expect that I would give birth within one hour and 21 minutes.
[00:21:31] Lisa: Can we back up to your first labor? Do you have any recollections of the car ride to the hospital?
[00:21:38] Danuta: Yeah. So we got an Uber. I can still remember what was going on around me at the time
[00:21:45] Lisa: Were in the back seat
[00:21:48] Danuta: I was.
[00:21:49] Lisa: And was your doula, was Raychel back there or was Jacek back there?
[00:21:52] Danuta: I didn't really want Jacek near me cause he wasn't very helpful at that time. I think Raychel's hand are magic, like I said. So she was in the back with me trying to help me really to keep the baby in at that point. She taught me some breathing exercises to actually keep the baby and rather than to make the labor progress. I was on my knees facing the back and just trying to get through the whole process until we got to the hospital.
[00:22:14] And I guess the taxi driver was very stressed seeing me in that state, you know, cause when a contraction comes on, you kind of scream and whatnot. So he was probably surprised and shocked and didn't know what was going on.
[00:22:27] Jacek: The funniest thing was when he said go to Lenox Hill cause you're giving birth and he asked us, "Have you scheduled an appointment to give birth?"
[00:22:38] Like we had to schedule when she's going to come give birth.
[00:22:42] Lisa: An induction, I'm guessing.
[00:22:45] Danuta: I think maybe his wife had a C-section. So he didn't know about the whole probably the screaming and all that. So when he saw that, he was like, "Oh, I've got to drive [fast]." And I'm like, "No, no, no, don't drive [fast]. You've got to slow down." I don't want to feel every bump in the Queensboro bridge. You know, the pot holes,
[00:23:02] Lisa: Right? Yes. Those are awful. And were you feeling the urge to push in the car?
[00:23:07] Danuta: I don't remember. I don't think so. Potentially a little bit if I remember correctly, but yeah, I think I was more scared of everything coming out. But yes, second time around definitely, definitely had the urge to push.
[00:23:21] Lisa: So then how was the pushing stage with the first time?
[00:23:26] Danuta: First time around the pushing stage. I mean, I've read lots of things, so I wasn't sure if you should push or not push, but this was after the first birth, but going back to the first birth the nurses guided me and pushing was relatively simple and calm for me.
[00:23:41] I heard that it can be very painful and long. Thankfully my pushing was done in two, three pushes. I did feel that ring of fire that you mentioned and I thought about you and you mentioned it. I was like, "Okay, this is the ring of fire they talk about," I remember saying that out loud. So that was quite distinctive obvious about the pushing parts. And yeah, then she came and the rest is history. We had a little girl in our arms.
[00:24:04] Lisa: Did she come straight to your chest?
[00:24:06] Danuta: Yes. So we tried to do the, you know, the natural thing of letting her do the crawl and not just initiate the breastfeeding to let her do the crawl slowly. And then we did the breastfeeding and Raychel helped quite a bit with that because first time around, you don't know what you're doing, honestly.
[00:24:22]But I also think that being in a hospital setting the whole breastfeeding thing may have not been the best thing for me. So in one way it was really good cause they did show me how to do it. And you know, I've really learned quite a bit. But they helped with pumping. And I don't know if that created an oversupply and yeah, I mean, [Emilia] was just throwing up a lot of milk in the first like couple of months.
[00:24:46] Cause I think that I had such a big supply, she couldn't handle it and the let down so fast that she probably couldn't handle it. And so I was grateful for the help. But I think that maybe it was too like interventionist in a way. I don't know.
[00:24:59] Jacek: It wasn't any, I mean, especially when you spend that two nights, I mean, you probably had three different lactation consultants. Each one had a slightly different point of view or approach. And then obviously a baby loses weight, you know, soon after birth and the hospital has like a red line who if you lose 10% or whatever, it's a problem. "The baby's not eating enough." And that together with the lactation consultant almost created a panic -- you have to feed, okay, you better start pumping so the baby gets enough milk. And because we were inexperienced, we kind of took their word for it because you know, you trust them, and then when we got out, so the pediatrician said that's normal. Every child's, you know, you shouldn't be worried about that, but it did push you to do the pumping. I mean, that was one of the main things, because
[00:25:45] Lisa: Did that create some anxiety?
[00:25:48] Danuta: It did a little bit, cause they're making me pump, I think every two hours or something. But I think your milk doesn't come in until like day two or three anyway, but yeah, it was a bit stressful to pump so much. Cause then you start thinking, "Well, maybe I can't make any milk or anything," but everything was really fine at the end of it.
[00:26:03]But doula Raychel helped a lot as well. She came, you know, postpartum. She came to our house and she helped us with the different positions, feeding positions, lying down, cradle hold or football hold. And you know, just that really helped with a lot of things to take the strain off. And I didn't really have any side effects from the feeding, like any back pains or anything, because I was doing things correctly. Whereas second time around I knew all the positions and everything, but I dunno, I think I overworked my wrist and I think that's another thing that postpartum women go through quite a bit with like carpal tunnel or like issues.
[00:26:42] I started to experience this time around from feeding incorrectly. The second night or third nights that she was home -- Maya, my second born. And I'm still dealing with that now, now that she's like almost nine weeks old now. So I'm still dealing with those issues now, which I didn't have the first time around.
[00:27:03] Lisa: Have you heard of Chelsea Method?
[00:27:06] Danuta: I don't think so.
[00:27:07] Lisa: It's an online program. They just launched a prenatal program, but they have a postpartum program. It's done by two doctors of physical therapy and they go into functional movements and getting your body back into optimal posture and they talk about body form in breastfeeding and all kinds of things to really help resolve or prevent some of those issues. So I'll send you the link and I'll post that in the show notes as well. Cause it's an excellent, excellent program.
[00:27:36] Danuta: Sometimes the effect postpartum on a mother's body is so different from one pregnancy to the next that you don't even realize what you're going to go through the second time around. With the first birth you know, you give birth your body somehow recovers okay-ish, you know, you get back into things.
[00:27:55] The second time around, I felt I had to get back into things a lot faster than the first time around because now I have a toddler that we have to look after as well. So, you know, your body kind of adjusts to that. Like you just have to get up and go. There's not much time to rest like first time around.
[00:28:10] And second time round, what I found was really difficult was the post labor contraction pains that you get so that uterus can shrink back to normal again. The first time, you know, you feel those pains and you feel them when you breastfeed, but they seem to go away after like one or two days. Second time around the pains are bad. They are extremely painful. They kind of almost feel worse than the contractions during actual labor. You know, I felt like I was shaky and it was, it was agonizing, really painful. So that's something that shocked me going into the second time around. And I mentioned this to Stephanie and she said to me, "Well, wait until the third. Cause that's even worse."
[00:28:51] Lisa: Yeah. And it's very common for us not to notice it much in the first time around and then the second time or any other postpartum time, it's like, what is going on? And I remember calling my midwife after my second baby was born saying, is there anything I can take for this that's compatible with breastfeeding? And she had me stagger ibuprofen with Tylenol every couple of hours. And that really, really was a lifesaver because yeah, I agree. It felt at times harder to deal with than my contractions.
[00:29:21] Do you want to share more details about your second birth?
[00:29:26] Danuta: Okay. So the second time around I mean the pregnancy, as I mentioned, went really well with Avalon Midwives and Our Birthing Center.
[00:29:35]Everything was peaceful, great, everything was normal. And I gave birth one week earlier than I did the first time. So it was at 39 weeks, just exactly 39 weeks. It progressed in much the same way. Water broke and then half an hour later contractions started. So I, same thing. I was lying on the bed like I was with Emilia. I heard a loud pop the first time round with Emilia and the water just gushed everywhere, all over the bed, on the floor. Second time around, I was actually lying in bed with Emilia cause we bedshare. So I was putting her to sleep and I remember her being restless and not wanting to sleep. And I just heard this pop, but I felt nothing.
[00:30:16] There was no water. I was like, well, maybe that was just the baby kicking really hard or something. But I was praying. I was like, "Emilia, please just go to sleep, go to sleep." And then 10 minutes later, after that popping sound, she fell asleep and getting all that preparation from Raychel. I knew to leave some towels on the side of the bed, just in case.
[00:30:35] And I had some under me just in case as well like the last week before I gave birth, in case the water broke while I was sleeping or something. And luckily it's, you know, I had those towels because the moment I stood up after you know, I had fallen asleep all the water gushed out. So I knew that that was the popping sound of my water breaking. So I quickly wrote to Jacek who was renovating our house cause we moved to New Jersey. So he was quite busy until the last moment with renovation, I said, "water broke!" -- he was painting the walls. I thought the quickest was, you know, I message him so he could start getting dressed while I sort of hobble along with the towel and try not to wet the floor and all the furniture and the rug and everything.
[00:31:15] So he didn't see the message. So I was like running and hobbling out there saying, "My water broke. We need to go!" We quickly got dressed. And this time around, we have a car because we live in the suburbs. So I think, Jacek called Stephanie from Bergen Doula. You know, just to let her know that my water broke and that we'd be heading straight to the birthing center.
[00:31:39] Jacek: We were a lot better prepared, we already had the car seats for the newborn. We already had the car seats in, and I think we already had a bag of things in the car and everything.
[00:31:50] Danuta: I actually had towels in the backseat of the car in case the baby was born, like on the way to the hospital, because this time around Avalon you know, the distance was a bit further for us compared to the first time round. Lenox Hill's not too far from Long Island City, whereas we gave birth in Morristown and we live in Cedar Grove and that's a half an hour drive. So I was really a bit stressed that I wouldn't get there on time. So we packed some towels in just in case anything happened in the cost.
[00:32:20] So same thing I took Raychel's advice of putting my knees on the backseats, just holding the back head rest looking at the back window. And I just pulled the arm rest that's in the middle out. And I put my head down on that and I just, I was lying there and screaming because it was extremely painful compared to the first time round.
[00:32:39] I had no time for chance. I had no time to think about what was happening. And I also had my toddler who had just fallen asleep and I had to whip her out of bed. She had half an hour of her sleep and you know, now she's sitting in the car seat and I'm screaming and she's like, "What happened Mommy?" I was like, "Nothing happened; I'm okay." So then the next contraction was happening. "Mommy, are you okay? What's happening?" And she's 24 months. She had just turned two. Yeah, and she understood it. So that was the nice thing about her being able to come to the appointments you know, to see, and to hear the heartbeats and just seeing my belly and she just really loved the whole process.
[00:33:19] So to have her involved in the thing, really, I think kept her calm and helped her to understand what was happening when I was in labor. Yeah. And then we got to the birthing center and I was asking Jacek, "How much further, how much further, you know, until we get there?" And once we did get there, he's like, where is this place it's
[00:33:39] Jacek: You were telling me to slow down on the highway. But we had to get there as soon as we could.
[00:33:48] Danuta: I either drive fast and get there, or we drive slow and we don't get there. So I had to just put up with all the bumps. You know, second time round, you don't prepare as much as you do for the first time around. So first time we had the whole tour of the place and we knew exactly how many steps to take into the hospital and where to go, which elevator to use. This time around, we were just like, "Okay, we know where the birthing center is. It's right here behind, you know, the building where the midwife is. So we'll just drive around the corner and --
[00:34:15] Jacek: We never had a tour because of the COVID stuff. They canceled all the in-person tours. So we never actually saw the offices. And then we got to the building cause they had no other births there that night. So I couldn't find it. So we parked in the parking lot on the other side of the building.
[00:34:34] Lisa: What month did you give birth?
[00:34:36] Danuta: In June? June 18. Okay.
[00:34:39] Lisa: Yeah. So, so after the height of the pandemic, but still. It's still definitely an issue.
[00:34:45] Danuta: They still had the restrictions, so no tours or anything, but, you know, that was our fault. We could have still gone to see where the front entrance was. So in my mind, I mean, I did look on Google maps, to see what it looked like. Jacek didn't do that. So I was like, "It's got a green awning. It's like a green roof," and he's like, "I don't see any green, anything here," but it was dark.
[00:35:07] Jacek: When we phoned the midwife who was on call that we on our way.
[00:35:12] Danuta: The midwife was busy at the hospital, so they had to get a second midwife to come. Luckily, a nurse arrived two minutes after we did, because the minute I put my feet out of the car onto the ground, I just felt this big drop. And I was like, okay, she's coming. And I was like, frozen stuck outside of the car door hanging on.
[00:35:33] Jacek: And I was looking for the entrance. I couldn't find where the entrance to the birthing center is with toddler running around, you screaming in the parking lot. And then luckily the nurse arrived. And she saw us and ran across the parking lot to you. She felt for the baby's head and asked you, do you want to give birth here in the parking lot or do you want to slowly walk across to the birthing center?
[00:35:57] Danuta: I remember saying, "I need a wheelchair," but she's like, "We don't have one of those,"..."But I need one." She's like, "Well, let's just slowly start walking." And I just, I honestly had to take every last bit of strength and courage I had in me to try and hobble along in this parking lot to the front door and into the birthing center onto the bed. And it was, it was hard. But we did it and I literally got onto the bed and started pushing. And that's when the doula came in, the midwife came in this is the midwife on call. The second one really. She came and then doula Stephanie came in as well.
[00:36:35] And yeah, then I mean, at that stage, I didn't really know who was around me. It wasn't like at Lenox Hill, I knew what was going on and who was around me and stuff. But this time, I didn't know what was going on.
[00:36:45] Lisa: Yeah. When it's that fast, makes sense.
[00:36:48] Danuta: At least this time around, we got our say. We could wait until the cord stopped pulsing. There was no stress around that.
[00:36:56] Jacek: We turned down the lights made the room pretty much dark.
[00:37:01] Danuta: As dark as they could be. Cause they had to see
[00:37:03] Jacek: We had Emilia right next to us. I mean Emilia was right there watching the baby come.
[00:37:08] Danuta: Emilia could see the baby being born and she was just in awe you know, she was so interested in what was happening and at age two as well, you would think that they'd be stressed out and crying and you know, not knowing what's going on, but she really, I think having her being part of it really helps with the behaviors afterwards at home as well.
[00:37:28] She doesn't really act out or anything. It's a very rare occasion that she does. So I think that whole process really prepared her for it. But yeah, the whole hospital birth versus birthing center birth it's like day and night with the interventions and taking the baby to weigh them and everything.
[00:37:47] And you know, just how the baby's kind of yours, the minute she comes out. So I did the same thing like I did with Emilia. She did the crawl and then we started feeding and everything really went well. You know, Stephanie was by my side, helping with the feeding and just keeping the baby warm. And I was really, really tired after this birth compared to the first one, I think, cause everything happened so fast. I was just, I was in pain. I was extremely exhausted. I couldn't even like hold her very well. It was, it was just hard.
[00:38:22] Lisa: Yeah. That's hard on your body when it ramps up so quickly,
[00:38:27] Danuta: Sometimes people think, well, I've had a doula the first time around. I know what to expect. It's fine. But I think having a doula the second time around helps as well, because you know, my husband was looking after Emilia and you need a helping hand.
[00:38:43] Just having someone there to help with everything. I mean, just holding her and it was hard. And this time around Stephanie really helped a lot with the feelings that I had around the birth. So she, she prepared me quite a lot of information as well. Like other more information as well. So at different information than what I got from Raychel, so I could learn a lot more about what to expect with the midwives, because that's something new, you know, we didn't know what interventions they do in terms of like, eye ointments or vaccinations. Like what do they do? You know, we didn't know. So she informed us quite a lot about what the experience would be like with a midwife. So, you know, we came across a lot of different things that you could do with the umbilical cord and like all the different placenta preserving things.
[00:39:36] Like I had known about the capsules and stuff with Raychel, but this time around, like she had a checklist of things that we may be interested in. So I was just interested to see that something about a Lotus or something?
[00:39:45] Lisa: Lotus birth.
[00:39:46] Danuta: Yeah. I didn't know all those things. So, you know, it is nice to be informed about those things ahead of time in case I wanted those things.
[00:39:54] Yeah. So it was really a nice learning curve for us. To learn extra about the natural side. Like Stephanie is really big into the natural things. So, you know, just, you learned quite a lot from that side of things. Yeah. And it was just nice to not be told, "Cut the cord, cut the cord," like having a big fight in the emergency room.
[00:40:14] Well, not the emergency room in the delivery room.
[00:40:17] Jacek: Well, it did feel like an emergency room. You have a million people standing over you and bright lights shining.
[00:40:23] Danuta: Doctors screaming at Jacek to cut the cord already. And we're just like--
[00:40:29] Jacek: And me screaming at the doctor to stop trying to wash the baby.
[00:40:33] Danuta: This time around it was none of that. It was really just, you know, whatever we wanted. And that's a nice thing because you're in control of your own child; that's actually the way it should be.
[00:40:51] Lisa: I think you said that you wanted to share for anyone who might experience something similar about the grief process, going from a family with one baby, to a family with two. You want to talk about that a little bit?
[00:41:04] Danuta: Yeah. So first time around, I was aware of the, you know, the possibility of having postpartum depression and all that stuff.
[00:41:11] And thankfully it didn't happen to me. I was fine the first time around. The second time around it really started hitting me like two to three months before giving birth. That the whole family dynamic was going to change and Emilia, my first born, was not just going to be the only one who I was going to share my day with and give my attention to fully.
[00:41:33] And that she'd have to probably grow up really fast when the newborn arrived and she won't have all my time. She'd have half my time and half of Jacek's time. And that's, you know, it kind of feels a bit hurtful cause you want to give all to all your children, I guess. So, yeah, just putting her to sleep was sometimes I'd be like, well, especially closer to the due date I'd be like, "Well, this might be the last time I do it for a while."
[00:41:59] And those kinds of things really make you sad. And just playing with her all day, being a stay-at-home mom, just taking care of her, you know, you think like this is the last time I'm going to be doing this. This is the last time it's just us going to the playground. And those kinds of feelings can weigh on you, especially the closer and closer you get to the birth date. So I wasn't depressed. I didn't have like any depression or anything, but those feelings are real and they're sad. And I found myself crying many times in, you know, the last few days. And once the baby was born, I think it just heightened. I think it might be a combination of hormones. It might be a combination of the reality of it, all that the baby's here now.
[00:42:38] That really was my last time putting Emilia to bed that night. And you know, those [loss] have now come to an end and now it's the time for new routines and just getting to learn this new little human being that's joined our family and one day you're with Emilia all day and all of a sudden, the next day, I'm not with her at all.
[00:42:58] It's really hard. And that whole process was quite difficult. So it was really very nice to have a doula who understood that. Stephanie has three children of her own, so she went through it all. And I could speak to her about the whole thing. So in the beginning, before I gave birth, I told her my feelings about, you know, now I'm kind of, I feel like I'm abandoning her almost sometimes.
[00:43:22] And she said she felt the same thing. So I thought, well, you know, this must be a thing that most women go through. And I wouldn't have known that had I not had a doula. So I thought that it would be important to mention this in a podcast so that other people who go through this don't have to feel alone as well.
[00:43:37] You can understand and know that it is normal and that you need to reach out for help and just speak to someone who has gone through it and understands. And I think once Maya was born, I, yeah, everything went off the rails. I was crying almost every single day over nothing and everything. Just seeing, seeing her have to, you know, just adapt and be with Jacek all the time.
[00:44:04] He was obviously on paternity leave. So he could look after her and play with her, but it's not me. So you feel that sadness of handing her over and not giving her the attention. And you know, sometimes you see sadness in her eyes and then it makes everything much worse for you. So you feel sad about that.
[00:44:23] You feel the grief process around that, and then you also feel the guilt because now you feel as though, you know, what about the newborn that's coming? You should be happy about that. And I was very happy about it, but I still couldn't shake that feeling of the grief. And it took a whole week of crying, feeling sad, feeling like I was in the depths of hell, honestly, to put it that way.
[00:44:46] I felt like I would never see the light of day again. That's how bad it felt. And I just reached out to some of my other friends who had also recently given birth to their second you know, their second children and yeah, they really helped a lot. And I spoke a lot to Stephanie afterwards. She really helped with my feelings and to normalize how I'm feeling and say, you know, this is all normal.
[00:45:09] This is what you go through. So that helped me. And I think after that first week, things started to lighten. You still get those feelings after two months, like now. You still feel, you know, that grief returns in waves comes and goes. But it's not as bad as that first week. So it's definitely a lot better now.
[00:45:30] Lisa: Yeah, yeah. That first week, you know, your milk is coming in and there's so many hormonal changes, so we're expecting to have some baby blues. I'm sure that really was playing into it. As you mentioned that part of it was hormonal. Do you think that the pandemic played into any of how either of you guys have felt in this time, in this, you know, second time around? It sounds to me like you probably would have experienced this grief process regardless of the timing of your second baby's birth.
[00:46:02] But I was just curious, do you think that the timing in relation to like we're in the middle of a pandemic right now, did that play into your emotional state for either of you in this journey?
[00:46:17] Danuta: So for us, I think we were really lucky that kind of, we didn't have much change in our life and our routines or anything because we both stayed at home even before COVID started.
[00:46:28] You have to work from home. We were always at home, so it's not like we had that extra stress to deal with like school and getting the children schooling and not having to deal with them being at home and having that whole change. I know a lot of families went through it. You know, through a lot of stress with that.
[00:46:45] So luckily for us, it was business as usual from that perspective. But once I had experienced that grief, I felt in one way I did feel like I wish I had my family here. But with flights being totally stopped, no international flights from South Africa, we didn't have family able to come over. We do have family in the States.
[00:47:06] But my sister-in-law is also pregnant now, so we couldn't expect them to travel and be with us. And, you know, so we were kind of pretty much alone apart from our friends who all live in New York, but I think that in this day and age technology really helps a lot. So I could reach out to family. Like my mom, my mother-in-law, I could reach out to friends who had gone through the same thing and just, you know, I've got a WhatsApp group with some of the other moms in the building in Long Island City where we used to live. And, you know, I just wrote to them and said, "This is how I feel. Is this normal? Did any of you go through that with your second born kids? And you know, what did you do? Does it get better? Does it leave? Does it ever get better?" And I think just getting the experiences from everyone helped me each day.
[00:47:52] And sometimes I had to be reminded that the next day or five minutes later, that it's not just me and that I'm not going through this alone and that's normal. Because you know, I'd feel better and then all of a sudden I'd feel sad again, when I'd see Emilia and that I'm not there with her. And, you know, so I think being away as well from everyone, like not even having friends come and visits in the first few weeks just to come and see the newborn and just to experience that joy with everyone, I think, you know, that that also added to it a little bit, but I don't think that for our family, COVID had such a huge impact on my feelings. I think it was more just because it was what it was with me as her mom and so attached to her.
[00:48:38] Lisa: Well, I'm so glad you have had, and continue to have support with your mom friends, you know, your doula sounds like she was immensely helpful to help really normalize it, that this is a very, very common grief process that we need to give ourselves permission to go through.
[00:48:54]So I'm so thankful that you were able to have clarity to pinpoint what it was you were feeling grief about and sadness about. That's huge in just processing through that grief and moving through it in a healthy way.
[00:49:09] Danuta: Yeah, Stephanie really helped with that, with helping me to understand that, I guess. That it is normal and just to pinpoint what it was and how to deal with it. And I also read the books of Sarah Ockwell-Smith. She's got a book, I think it's called the Second Child book or something.
[00:49:24] But yeah, I think that helped me a lot as well. Cause she helped me to understand the, the grief with the second child and what to go through and how to prepare. So that book was really useful.
[00:49:34] Lisa: I will be sure to include that in the show notes. Thank you for that recommendation. Did you want to share a little bit about the birthing center model in terms of what happens after birth?
[00:49:47] Danuta: Okay. I know Jacek has a lot to say about that. So--
[00:49:50]Jacek: Yeah. So one of the things that Danuta I think after the whole experience you mentioned was that you felt like, you know, the main difference was in the hospital because you were, first of all, staying overnight. And you had a lot of people involved not just in the tests every few hours and checking up on you, but actually right in the beginning, helping you. Basic things, just going to the toilet the first time, having someone to hold you and support you, having a shower, having someone there to hold you support to people, bringing you something to drink, to eat
[00:50:26] Danuta: Well, the meals at Lenox Hill were amazing. I'd go back there just for that.
[00:50:31] Lisa: I've heard good things about Lenox Hill's food.
[00:50:36] Jacek: So, so they had a lot of hands-on support. Especially if you're a mom and you're tired, you had a long labor or a short one, either way you can be physically exhausted from it.
[00:50:47] It was in a birthing center because the whole model is about getting you in and out of there as quickly as possible. You know, you kind of felt on your own. Even though we had to do that, we also had to deal with the toddler being taken care of because we couldn't bring any other family and the COVID situation. And you felt like it was harder for you because you were physically probably more exhausted than your first birth.
[00:51:12] And just having to go to the toilet on your own, shower on your own. And you said felt harder.
[00:51:18] Danuta: It was harder in some ways. I mean, I see the whole point that, you know, empowering you and making you feel like you're not a patient or like, you know, like there's something wrong with you. So I get that, but at the same time, it was a bit hard. And I didn't anticipate that in the beginning, but now that I know what it's all about, I guess maybe if I were hypothetically to have a third birth in a birthing center, I would understand that process and I'd be able to deal with it a lot better. But I think because it happened to me at the time, I wasn't able to understand like, the whole process the birth and then able to still stand up and shower and everything and leave so quickly.
[00:52:01] You know, I felt like I just wanted to get into bed and sleep and rest. So you could do that in a hospital setting. Whereas in the birthing center, you kind of, you give birth and you leave. And that is the, probably the best thing, because you're a non-home again. And, you know, you get into life with the newborn and you get the newborn to sleep at home and they sleep so long that, you know, that's, that's great in the beginning. But it's hard.
[00:52:27] Lisa: It's a tradeoff, right? Yeah. Because a lot of people report in when they give birth in a hospital that they can't sleep very well because it's often it's a shared room. Not always, but in New York it often is. And there's beeping monitors and, you know, staff coming in and out. At the same time, you do have a bit more support while you're there. So as people are weighing their different options for where they want to give birth, that's just another consideration to realize that yes, you will be sent home sooner at a birthing center with the idea that your home is likely more comfortable. But it also is a trade-off that you won't have as much hands-on support, you know, for the day or two after birth, as you would in a hospital.
[00:53:08] Jacek: And when we got home, we got a full night's sleep whereas in the hospital you had someone coming in every hour. Just as you're about to fall asleep, someone comes in
[00:53:17] Just as you sit on the toilet, the photographer comes in.
[00:53:27] Danuta: At least I had no photographers walking in on me in the bathroom. It's nice to be in my own--
[00:53:33] Jacek: Everyone sleeps through the night on the first night
[00:53:36] Danuta: and then never again.
[00:53:40] Lisa: At least not for the foreseeable future. Yeah. Cause you guys are just a couple months in, right with your second, still in that fourth trimester.
[00:53:51] Danuta: Yeah. We're more prepared this time around. So parenting does feel a bit easier in some ways and in some ways it's harder.
[00:53:58] Jacek: It's just harder having a toddler at the same time. Yeah.
[00:54:05] Danuta: You're not outnumbering them; kind of equal now,
[00:54:08] Lisa: Right, yes.
[00:54:11] Danuta: Another thing with a hospital setting versus the home birth, you able to leave early and come home. I think it was really nice that I still had that care at home. We had a nurse come over, I think the next day to check on the baby and to check on me, to see if I'm healing well.
[00:54:31] That was really reassuring for me because that I was scared of that. Cause I know in the hospital, they check to see if you're bleeding extra or if you have any issues that have come up. I was a bit scared of being at home, but with the nurse coming over, I think that put us all at ease to know that my heating is going fine, you know, everything's going on track.
[00:54:51] So it was nice to have them come to you rather than have to drag out. But the other downside of having a child in the birthing center setting or home is that you have to take them to the pediatrician. So that can be a little difficult, you know, just gathering yourself and, you know, just lugging everything with you to the pediatrician the day after you give birth, that can be difficult, whereas in the hospital, the pediatrician is there and they can do everything for you in the hospital setting. So it's a little easier in the hospital when it comes to the pediatrician.
[00:55:27] Lisa: Well, this has been great. Do you have any last things that you wanted to share that you hadn't gotten to share yet? Or any specific tips or insights for new parents or expectant parents?
[00:55:40] Danuta: Well, I remember Stephanie telling me that when I bring the baby home, my firstborn is going to look like the giant and she did. Before I gave birth, she was still this little child.
[00:55:53] We could pick her up and our hands would fit around her, we just moved her or picked her up and you know, at age two, they are relatively small. But once you have a newborn, you're like, "Whoa, you grew overnight." So that really is a big surprise. When you go from one to two.
[00:56:12] Lisa: Yeah, that's a great observation. I hadn't really thought about that. Now I have to think back to our journey into having two babies. I guess that's true. Yeah. Your perception changes..
[00:56:25] Jacek: They're sleeping next to you in bed and you have to move one. One is tiny, like a feather. The other now feels like a rock.
[00:56:38] Lisa: Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your birth stories. This has been wonderful to see you again. And I know this is going to be very valuable for listeners, so I wish you well --continued healing and continued bonding as you continue to grow into this family of four.
[00:56:58] Danuta: Thanks for having us. It's just so nice to speak about the whole thing and to relive it again, actually.
[00:57:04] Lisa: Take care.
[00:57:05] Danuta: Bye.