In today’s episode, we kick off our fertility journey series as postpartum doula and babywearing educator Adriane Stare, who shared her first baby’s conception and birth story in Episode 40, returns to share her 2nd baby’s Christmas Day birth story. This is a story of a frozen embryo IVF conception and then a planned home birth that needed to transfer to the hospital in the pushing stage that results in a vaginal birth. In contrast to her first birth at home, Adriane shares some challenging aspects of her hospital stay including feeling unsupported, feeling unnecessarily shamed for attempting a homebirth, not getting the pain meds she needed for her very strong afterpains, struggling to get discharged early, and more. This episode drives home both the need for support in postpartum as well as the need for improvement in homebirth transfer relationships and education for hospital personnel on the safety of homebirth.
Episode Topics:
The decision to try for #2
The desire to change fertility clinic (to Genesis Fertility) and have a natural IVF cycle instead of being done with medications, but that didn’t work
They were able to use fewer hormones
Year of the Fire Dragon (=luck) -- many people trying, clinics full
Implanted embryo -- she was told she was a “little bit pregnant” and ended up having a chemical pregnancy
Went in for #2 - nothing happened with that
Try #3 - it took!
Pregnancy - she was offered progesterone (recommended after IVF cycle to help prevent miscarriage); she didn’t want to take the suppositories or the shots due to side effects, but lots of nausea
The challenges of being pregnant
Choosing same homebirth midwife, hiring different doula (Domino Kirke) since 1st doula had left the city; didn’t really do much prep or reflection
Going for acupuncture throughout pregnancy, weekly in last few weeks
Stressing about childcare during labor
Hoping to have baby before 12/23 due date
Around December 20th, her son got sick and she caught a stomach flu, son having really bad tantrums (age 3) realization she couldn't have the baby before the due date as she had hoped
Goes into labor on Christmas morning - water breaks and fluid is very green
Midwife tells her to go back to bed, but she woke everyone up to open presents around 6am
Sporadic gushes of fluid
Doula Domino comes over with the energy of a personal trainer and they take a walk
Using a breast pump from her store to do nip stim & homeopathic pills to encourage contractions to pick up
Getting in knee chest position to help baby’s position + comedy shows to produce endorphins and distract
Contractions strengthen, she needs to be alone
First vaginal check - 5cm
Starting to set up birth tub
Went into basement shower, having very strong contractions and vocalizing loudly
Baby’s head was having trouble effacing the cervix; there was a cervical lip -- midwife thought baby was in an asynclitic position
Baby still seems stuck so midwife has her get out of the tub to get into a bunch of positions to try to turn baby
Baby’s heartbeat was going down during contractions while she was on all fours
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Interview Transcript
Lisa: Today I have Adriane Stare with us to tell us her second fertility journey and birth story, and I'm really excited to have her back with us. For those of you who might've missed her first birth story she is a postpartum doula, a baby-wearing guru/expert/ consultant. She teaches baby wearing classes. And does consultations with folks and a lactation counselor, yes? She's all things postpartum, basically. Yeah.
[00:00:27] So if you didn't hear her first birth story, be sure to go back and check that out. I'm so excited to see you again today, Adriane. Welcome.
[00:00:34] Adriane: Thank you so much, Lisa. This is the best. Any chance I have to get to share a birth story, I do. So I really appreciate the opportunity.
[00:00:43] Lisa: And it sounded like it's going to be fairly different from the first, both the fertility journey, as well as the birth story. So I'm looking forward to hearing the details of all of that.
[00:00:53] Adriane: Absolutely.
[00:00:54] Lisa: So about how long after your first birth did you start thinking about having your second?
[00:01:02] Adriane: That is a great question. I think for a lot of people out there who've had one kid and are thinking about the second, it really depends on how the first kid is. Right? I hear this so often, your first child is an angel and they sleep well and they eat well. And oftentimes you can launch right back into having a second kid, if that's your hope and if that works for you. But that was not the case with our family. If you hear my first birth story on Lisa's podcast, you'll learn that my first kiddo was, I believe I shared, but he was quite difficult.
[00:01:37] You know, very healthy, very alert, very challenging -- let's say high-needs child. And I was watching a lot of my parent community at that time starting to think about having second kids. Everyone had their own reason for it. Some folks were, you know, hitting an age where they didn't want to wait too long and they were worried about egg quality. Other people were spacing kids out more because they were moving. Or some people were not having second kids. Everyone was making these choices, but I was starting to watch my friend community start to have kids. And for someone who has an IVF story and would only have kids via IVF or through a fertility process like that, it was really a choice for our family in a way, you know, we don't accidentally get pregnant.
[00:02:23]And I was watching that happen to people. So all of these feelings were coming back of, like, pressure. The pressure to start working on having a kid because I was seeing people around me doing it, but my child was so hard and I was opening a business, and I had no time at all.
[00:02:40] And if you look at pictures of me, I was just like so skinny because I was just working eight days a week, parenting all of it. And I really wasn't ready. And I would have these little mini, almost panic attacks, thinking about the fact that, "Oh my gosh, if I was pregnant right now, I couldn't even imagine it."
[00:02:56] I was still nursing full time, all the way until actually Damian, my first, was three. So, the prospect of starting an entirely new pregnancy journey was overwhelming to me. And yet I didn't want to wait so long, for a few reasons. One, I'm one of three and I'm, I'm very, very close with my older sister. And I think for a lot of people that are out there that probably resonates. If you have a sibling that you were very close to, often, you know, that nostalgia, you seek that out in your own family. So I didn't want our children to be so far apart that they didn't have a close relationship like that. And then secondly, I still had a toddler. You know, there is some wisdom to sort of keeping kids in the diapering phase together or keeping them close enough together that, you know, your life makes sense for everybody, even though he had been out of diapers since he was 18 months. So that, that one there didn't apply. And thirdly, I ran a baby store.
[00:03:50]This sounds ridiculous, but my entire life is about babies. So, you know, an infant newborn meant like lots of product research, lots of potential for baby wearing videos. It was just so relevant to my life at the moment that it seemed like a good time. Scoff at that as you may. I'm stuck with him for the rest of my life, no matter what my career does, but that factored in, in terms of a sense of urgency and wanting to sort of keep really present with the services that I was offering.
[00:04:20] Lisa: And can I ask you a question there? With frozen embryos, is there a deadline with that?
[00:04:24] Adriane: Oh, I think it's all new science. It's so new and I don't even know. And I read different articles from time to time on what the longevity is of an embryo when you freeze them. So we had quite a few frozen embryos that were in storage. And we were lucky enough when we decided to have another baby that we could do that. However, I didn't have the same insurance anymore. So there was going to be a lot of out-of-pocket costs. Those were really intimidating. And we weren't totally pleased with the first IVF clinic that we used, the first fertility clinic that we used. So we wanted to transfer somewhere where maybe the experience was a little bit different. I was very interested in trying to have what was called a natural IVF cycle, which is basically the implantation of a frozen embryo, but in accordance with my body's own natural, monthly rhythm, so that I wouldn't have to take all of the medication to sort of sync up my cycle with the implantation of the frozen embryo, if that makes sense.
[00:05:28] Lisa: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I like that idea.
[00:05:32] Adriane: I think it appeals to a lot of folks. It just feels a little less intensive. I mean, the hormones were so crazy. You still have to go to the clinic every morning at 5:30 -- or whatever this like tiny, early, very early morning window is -- you still have to go in so they can like take your blood and measure the rate at which your cells are growing and whatnot and what stage you are in your cycle. And basically the idea is that right when you're about to naturally ovulate, they want to implant the frozen embryo in you. So your body thinks that you're ready for pregnancy. So we decided to start looking into it and start going through with it.
[00:06:08] We didn't know how long it was going to take. That's another thing. Could have taken a year. I know oftentimes second pregnancy stories are very different from the first and that can come as a surprise. But we didn't want to have it go on for two years. Or if it was going to go on for two years, we didn't want to wait so long getting started. So we chose a different fertility clinic called Genesis Fertility. And I was all set for my natural IVF cycle. And I had been having pretty regular periods, which for me was quite unusual, but I had been having them much more regularly since becoming pregnant with my first, which was sort of amazing.
[00:06:46] And I had had three regular cycles. They were all within 30 days or whatever my cycle time was, and I'm going daily or every other day or every few days. So they can sort of monitor how my cycle is going. And the development of whatever egg that I'm supposed to be ovulating starts arresting. Like, sort of, the development froze. Like I would go in the next day, it wasn't getting bigger. I wasn't ovulating. And like the day that I was expecting to ovulate, like maybe it would get a little bit bigger and then it would hold.
[00:07:19] And I think that sometimes that's the body's response to just like, all the information and stress of expectation and knowing, and wanting something to happen on a certain day. I don't know to what extent I like mentally made this happen, but that's what the arrested development is.
[00:07:34] And it was so amazing to see on a screen actually, to be able to look at your like follicle as it's growing and then just to watch it sort of hang out in limbo for a while. So after that, they decided that it was going to be best if they could time it, with me using hormones. So I agreed to it. And I went through basically what felt like another IVF cycle, although they weren't needing to harvest eggs. So I wasn't needing to take all the hormones that I did the first time. It was much more gentle on my body. This would have been early 2012. And the fertility clinic I was using had two very well-known Chinese doctors. What I didn't know at the time was that we were coming to the end of the lunar cycle, the fire dragon. If you follow Chinese astrology, it was the year of the dragon, and this particular year was the year of the fire dragon, which is like a huge symbol of luck and power and amazement. So people were flying into this fertility clinic from all over the world to try and have their babies before the end of fire dragon year. And it was swamped. It was like totally packed.
[00:08:43] I mean, like I cringe when I think about this in the time of coronavirus, but it were, there were so many people in there every morning. The waits were very long. It was like a total madhouse.
[00:08:52] Lisa: Did you realize this at the time? Did someone tell you?
[00:08:55] Adriane: Oh, yes, while I was going, I was like, "What is the deal with all the people?" They're like, "Well, people are trying to have the babies you know, they want fire dragons." I thought, "Well, maybe I'll get a fire dragon. We'll see. That sounds great."
[00:09:07] Lisa: And how old was your first born, your son, at this point?
[00:09:10] Adriane: He was two and a half. And he was in his prime. I mean, this child is a handful. He continues to be a handful. And a two-and-a-half-year-old version of him I really don't wish on anybody. I was like at the peak of parenthood. Like my older sister says, who has two little kids right now, I probably was like a fly with like 21 eyes all around my head. Just, like, managing business, managing life, managing him. I really had lost a bunch of weight because it was just going to the world. Right? And I can't even believe I do this, I mean, I opened a business when he was 11 months old, so I apparently, I do this. And when you're feeling busy, you just add things to the plate and it all works out.
[00:09:50] So we went through a cycle with him and it was time for them to implant one of the embryos. It was really different from my first experience. They have like a very sort of like new age spacey operation room, where you're, like, they encourage meditation and acupuncture and all sorts of things to help keep you calm and centered. And they implanted an embryo and you go back in in a few days so they can test your blood levels and see if they think you're pregnant. And it turned out that I was a little bit pregnant. And when they say a little bit pregnant, it's like the counts were low and they warned me that if they didn't increase at a certain rate, I would have what was called chemical pregnancy, which was new to me, which is basically when your body does get a little bit pregnant. Maybe you have a little implantation, but the rate of growth is not what you see typically for normal pregnancy. So it's almost certain that you will lose the pregnancy. And for most people who go through this, they never even know they're pregnant. They just have a period that comes a few days late and that's the end of it.
[00:10:50] But for me to really have all the information meant, like, I sort of knew what was happening. And I was stressing and reading all about chemical pregnancy and really wanting it to work. I didn't want to have to pay for more cycles. You know, there was a financial pressure that we were having this time and, um, so it didn't take. So, I think we waited a month or two and then went again for round two.
[00:11:10] They implanted a second embryo. Nothing happened with that. And it was okay. I feel like we were sort of prepared for this, but also it had worked the very first time with my son. So this was new. But it was a reminder that, you know, my body was different. Who knows about the quality of frozen embryos. There's all sorts of things probably that can change or go wrong or not be ideal with a tiny cell, when you're like trying to keep it alive and then find a home for it inside a uterus.
[00:11:40] Lisa: Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I assume they have to thaw it -- basically warm it up -- before putting it inside?
[00:11:46] Adriane: I think so. I think they take it out, they choose the one, they take it out of the freezer and they prep it to the degree it needs to be prepped, thawed. And it has to just be timed so perfectly.
[00:11:56] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:11:56] Adriane: Because you're trying to recreate a natural situation outside of the body. And if you let it go too long, you know, as people know who've gone through this, an egg will realize that it's not in a body and the development will arrest.
[00:12:09] So there's a limited time window that you're working with. Luckily, we had let our eggs grow for six days into stage what they call blastocysts. So it was really, really developing at a fast rate. They were very well formed and far along before they froze them, which has a higher rate of success when they're then implanting them for you later, versus just freezing your eggs without fertilizing them at all, for example, which is a, you know, a less probable chance when you're talking about fertility. So. Third time, I said, "Okay, third time's the charm. Just go through this again." Pray for the best. You know, maybe it's just a matter of cycles. And so we went through another round of it.
[00:12:48] And it's exhausting. You know, I live in Brooklyn. I had to go to the west side of Manhattan every morning. Luckily, we had a nice subway route, but it was like three transfers. You know, they were quick and I could get there in like speedy time, but it was like a lot of training to get there in time and then having to go straight to work from there and sort of fitting that into your life already with a baby. Sometimes you can second guess yourself. Like, what are we doing all this for? Anyway, third time they implanted, it took. And I was pregnant with the beginnings of, you know, a fire dragon baby. If he were to survive the pregnancy. That was very exciting.
[00:13:24] The pregnancy journey itself, the early days of it, I was not too keen on taking progesterone, which they offer you and ask you to take after you go through an IVF implantation cycle, typically because your body hasn't gone through all those natural hormone increases that it goes through when you naturally become pregnant. And there are studies that show that it's effective, that it's not effective, but the default is to do it because you don't want to do anything that could risk losing the baby, especially
[00:13:54] after you've
[00:13:55] gone to so much trouble to have it.
[00:13:57]So you're usually prescribed some form of progesterone to help ward off the accidental miscarriage in the early weeks, which has been correlated to low progesterone. So I don't pretend to speak on the validity of that. This is just my experience going through it. I didn't want to take the progesterone suppositories. They were just a complete mess. I mean, it was like months of disgusting mess. I didn't really want to give myself the progesterone shots because they were painful. Although it is a little bit funny. I don't know, there's something about giving yourself a shot. It's so ridiculous if this is not part of your normal everyday journey. Like, I was fine with it, but I didn't really want to do it. I, like, ended up negotiating some alternative form of progesterone. But most importantly, it just sort of made me very queasy. Gave me like terrible, morning sickness.
[00:14:48] Lisa: And are you saying this from experience the first time around?
[00:14:51] Adriane: Yes. And then I was taking it the second time around and my body intuitively felt like it was from the progesterone. And I have read that for others it was the same. Perhaps I was guessing. But there were a few times in the first couple months of pregnancy where I would spot a little bit and feel a little crampy.
[00:15:10] And that is like the absolute worst feeling to feel when you're pregnant is that cramping sensation, because you think you're losing the baby every time. And I basically would increase my progesterone dosage when I was feeling that way. I don't know if that was what helped, but my body did carry him all the way through the first three months.
[00:15:31] And I was extremely nauseous. I mean, way more nauseous with the second than I was with the first. I was puking on the regular, I mean, just sort of like little bits, but like throughout the day. It was all day sickness, not just the morning. I was like very sensitive to foods that I was eating, but I was also working hardcore full-time because now I was pregnant, and I was expecting a maternity leave in nine months and I'm the owner of a small business.
[00:15:55] So I was like burning the candle, trying to get everything done with knowledge that I was gonna, you know, be out at some point or be, you know, laden with more children. But it was awesome. It was an awesome pregnancy. It was really, really hard physically. It's not an experience that I really enjoy. And my husband will probably remind me -- if I ever think that I wanted to do it again -- how much I hate pregnancy. And I know for some people, they actually choose not to have more kids because the pregnancy journey is just not worth it.
[00:16:27] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I was right there after two. I was like, "I don't ever want to be pregnant again." And which is like, "Oh, waah." Because my pregnancies were pretty uncomplicated, but I don't know for me, I just didn't want to be pregnant again. I was like, "If we're ever going to have a third, it's going to be adoption."
[00:16:41] Adriane: It's a lot of work. It's uncomfortable. Especially while you're parenting another child, like, there's not sort of like the precious time to focus on your own changing body. And after you've been through it all, you're probably a little bit less curious about it. You just want to like, make it through and stay healthy. I didn't do nearly the amount of exercise that I did with the first. I wasn't as concerned with like, keeping my body in shape and preparing myself physically for birth. I was also like moving around a lot and I was really working so, so much. The best part about it was that I was a pregnant person around all these wonderful women who worked with me in my store, many of whom had not had kids, many of them who had had kids. There were young people who were doulas and just to be with someone many multiple days for a week, who's growing a baby -- it's like, you learn so much just by being around that. So I did feel like my pregnancy in that space was really positive and, like a learning experience for everyone around me.
[00:17:40] It didn't matter if you were someone who worked at, like in our inventory department, to actually see a changing body deeply in an intimate way. Cause I talk about everything that's happening and you can touch and feel. And it's almost like I, I'm happy to share that with people that I'm close to because I think it's so fascinating.
[00:17:57] And you often aren't given that opportunity, but that part of the pregnancy felt really amazing and it went by much faster than my first pregnancy, because I was just scrambling to try and have enough time to get stuff done.
[00:18:09] Lisa: Can I ask a quick couple of questions along the lines, back to the progesterone?
[00:18:13] Adriane: Yeah.
[00:18:13] Lisa: So just, I was a little unclear, which form in your first pregnancy, did you take the progesterone and for how long and same question for the second pregnancy?
[00:18:23] Adriane: Oh, they want you to take it, I think, up until I want to say 14 weeks, 12 weeks, it could be 15 weeks. I can't remember. They want to leave the first trimester until approximately the first trimester until your placenta takes over is the goal.
[00:18:39] And then you can like wean off of it at that point. And in the first I had taken the progesterone as a suppository, I think, in my first pregnancy. And it was so messy, that I believe I requested it in shot form, because I was already giving myself shots. With the second pregnancy, I was like trying to avoid the daily shots of progesterone. And I really can't remember, but I remember negotiating with my doctor some alternative way of taking it because, or not, or not having to take it at all. Yeah.
[00:19:17] Lisa: Can you do like a cream, a topical cream, or is that not really a high enough dose?
[00:19:22] Adriane: I'm not sure. I know that people do what's called natural progesterone creams.
[00:19:26] You can like get that even in like a health food store. I know that people do that to balance their hormones, particularly when they're going through menopause. And, I'm not, I can't speak to the science behind that or the validity or the studies because I have not read them, but I know that is what people do.
[00:19:40]But yes, you can absorb progesterone topically, which is, I think, why they give you, the suppository. And I guess the belief is that it's just closer to the source where you want the progesterone. I honestly don't know how much research has really [been] done on it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just sort of, sort of some practice that we just do 'cause we've always done it for the last 20 years. Because there's like some evidence that shows that maybe it could help. So that would be interesting to hear someone speak about that for me, too. But you have choices of how you take progesterone and it's often recommended for anyone who's at risk of miscarriage, regardless if you're miscarrying because of a progesterone deficiency.
[00:20:20]And I'm certain that there's people who are very well-informed, who can, you know, just talk about this ad nauseum and bust all the myths. Yeah.
[00:20:30] Lisa: I'm so fascinated by hormonal everything that I I'm like, "Yeah. I want to learn more about all of this."
[00:20:35] Adriane: Yeah. And it's like progesterone dips are a risk for anyone, regardless of [if] you go through IVF. And to what extent they really actually cause a miscarriage or they just are like correlated to other things. I can't say. I feel like it really, truly is all amazing magic that happens inside of the body. And it's very hard to say what causes what.
[00:20:58] So in my second pregnancy, I didn't take, I didn't take a refresher childbirth ed class.
[00:21:04] I felt like because I ran classes in my space that were childhood ed classes. And because I've worked in the birth space for so much, that that is not something that I needed. And I think that I went into my second birth assuming that like I had it, I was on top of it. I got a birth doula. And that because I had been through before somehow I didn't need all of the prep that I needed with the first kiddo.
[00:21:31]And I think that was very short-sighted on my part. Not because I didn't remember sort of the stages of labor, or you know, comfort positions and stuff, but because it would have been nice to carve out some space for my partner and myself out of work that was really focusing on our journey and we were planning another home birth.
[00:21:57]And it would have been nice to revisit sort of our plans for exactly who is going to take who, when. And if we had a home birth transfer plan and really sort of spec that out and talk about those details. One thing that we very much underestimated was like the stress and anxiety of childcare for ourselves.
[00:22:20] We really, we couldn't give to anybody. He was one of those kids. You couldn't just hand them to a grandma even, or a neighbor or a friend. We had childcare for him. We had a nanny who was amazing. But she was really the only person that he would feel comfortable with, but he had a lot of anxiety and still does, has diagnosed OCD and just handing him off to a random person was that in of itself, felt traumatic to us no matter how convenient that would have been. So we were stressing about him a little bit and, we would have benefited from some real postpartum planning and also a revisit to our own, like, time to talk to someone who wasn't my husband and myself time for us to reflect our birth plan with someone, in a way that wasn't sort of winging it; I felt like we were winging it a little bit. We loved our midwife. We were using the same midwife again. We had great birth team. Everyone sort of knew what to do. There wasn't that much value in really planning out something that's totally unknown.
[00:23:17] Lisa: Was your doula the same or different?
[00:23:20] Adriane: My doula, my doula was different. I used Domino Kirke from Carriage House Birth, who was part of my business world at the time. I didn't really do a lot of work to try and interview and choose someone. I just like went with what felt right in the moment.
[00:23:34]My doula for my first pregnancy and birth was no longer living local, so that wasn't a choice for us. And we just, I just feel like we sort of went with what felt easiest and in front of us for like made a lot of the same choices that we had made for the second birth that we had with the first.
[00:23:52] And I really wish that we had given ourselves a little more time to sort of like, yes, we think we know what's going on. We have a good plan, but let's just sit down and really go through this again. Remind ourselves, what this experience is going to be and do some real planning around if this doesn't go well, if this does go well, what's our plan in that case.
[00:24:11]And I was due on December 23rd. So we knew that the baby was coming around Christmas time and I spent the entire pregnancy praying and hoping and wishing and, you know, giving sacrifices to the gods that [fate?] was not going come on Christmas. and that was my, I don't know why I thought that Christmas would have been any different than the day after Christmas or before or whatever.
[00:24:41] Somehow the 23rd felt like fine, but the 25th felt like a no-go.
[00:24:47] Lisa: Before you go into that, can I just ask you to reflect a little bit on, what do you think--I have a couple of theory ideas on why I think you might have felt like it wasn't necessary to go to a refresher class or whatever. One: you were working a lot, you were running a business. It just felt like too much. And then maybe also, because your first birth was pretty uncomplicated. Are those maybe reasons? Or were there others?
[00:25:11] Adriane: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think that if you experience complications with your first birth, that's gonna like check you a little bit.
[00:25:18] And when you go into another experience, you're gonna go back to the drawing board and you're going to go with a little bit more awareness and also expectation that things can go wrong or can change or can be very different from what you're planning. I wouldn't necessarily say that we didn't plan because my first birth was uncomplicated, but we didn't plan so much because my first birth really matched the vision that we had for it. Right. It wasn't like it was of complicated nature. It was that it was what we expected and planned for. We had tools in our toolbox. We were able to draw upon them and use them.
[00:25:52] And the outcome was one that we were hoping for. And so that match made me probably naive to assume that if you intend and you are, you know, educationally prepared, I have the knowledge about the process of birth that all those things would go together. But I did not plan, but I had had folks in my home birth ed, my home birth childbirth class that we took for my first, who had home birth transfers, who had to go to a hospital, even though they were attending a home birth, it was a very, very long multi-day labor who had wished that they had planned more for the outliers. They had planned more about what that transfer would have looked like, what timelines would have looked like.
[00:26:34] But I think that people don't want to plan for the negative staff or the bad staff are the unintended consequences, because it feels almost like you're setting yourself up for failure and there's less emphasis on planning for the bad stuff and more emphasis on really trying to manage what, you know, what you want for your birth. So,
[00:26:53] Lisa: Yeah, I know a lot of home birth midwives who kind of discourage their clients from even packing a bag in the event of a transfer. And when I had my own home birth, I kind of, I was like, no, but I felt like it was going to help me relax into things to be prepared for that, you know, hopefully unlikely event.
[00:27:10] So I think it really depends on someone's personality in terms of that whole thing.
[00:27:14] Adriane: Absolutely. And there [were] many times where we were like, "we probably should pack a bag." Like just in case, and it was this thing, like we should do it, but we didn't actually do it because we didn't believe that we would need that.
[00:27:27] And if we did need that, we wouldn't really care what was in the bag. Right. Because. At that point, all bets would be off and like, just send me somewhere where I can get the help that I'm going to need, because that's why you transfer is because you cannot get that help at home and you really want and need that help. So you go somewhere and who gives a flying F what's in the bag.
[00:27:48] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Adriane: So that was sort of like our approach to it. Like if we need the bag, it will be an emergency. And we will know in the moment, like, and just have that ready. And I don't looking back, I definitely don't feel like I made that--like, I wish I had packed a bag. Right. The bag is not like, like what you bring with you in a hospital transfer is important and it can really change maybe your experience depending on how hard it is to get the things that you really want and need. And you should have brought them in, if you could just plan a little bit.
[00:28:18] For me, it was more running my head through the scenarios and really preparing myself emotionally for what it would feel like to have your birth really end in a transfer? I didn't know. I really had no idea what that might feel like emotionally. Because I hadn't been through that experience before. I had attended births as a doula in hospitals.
[00:28:41] And I know how that feels. I've seen a range of emotions and experiences and I visit clients as a postpartum doula, oftentimes in the hospital before they even come home. So there's a lot that goes on that I do know of, but I feel that, I didn't have that whole experience myself. So perhaps I really was naive going into it.
[00:29:00]And that was because I was working in a baby store, surrounded by educators who I love, respected and learned from. But I think that perhaps there was an ego going into that for me, or a lot of ego where I just felt like I knew more, or I knew best, and I knew enough. And, and I think I needed to go through that because coming out the other end of this birth, which you'll learn, has made me a much better doula and a much better birth worker. It was like a blessing, right? It was like the gift of this experience that was so hard and unexpected. It taught me so much. And coming through it really allows me to empathize better with people who are in situations that they didn't plan for, or didn't expect without thinking like, "Oh, you should have planned for that," or "you could have done this, or," you know, sometimes you're in it and just sort of being aware of the level of traumas that people can experience during birth. I think that, I just didn't have a deep, deep enough appreciation for it because of my own first experience that, like you said, it was uncomplicated and was came out sort of how we planned. Hmm. So are you ready for the birth?
[00:30:12] Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So you were saying the due date was December 23rd?
[00:30:16] Adriane: Yes, the due date was December 23rd and on December 1st, I was ready to have the baby come. I was like, let's not wait until the end of December. It would be really great if we could have the baby by the 16th, I've heard second babies come early.
[00:30:31] I'm feeling extremely pregnant. And I just do not want to like get into the hairy holiday time. I would love to have the baby early. Oh, universe and body. And, I'm like, I'm going to start preparing to have the baby early. I'm going to start, you know, my husband's going to give me massages. I'm going to start going to acupuncture.
[00:30:54] And acupuncturists, aren't going to induce labor or be like excited to induce labor and someone who still has a few weeks left in pregnancy. Right. So I, I wasn't like asking people to go into labor spots, but I was going more regularly in an effort to prepare my body.
[00:31:10] Lisa: Do you remember how early you started that?
[00:31:13] Adriane: Oh, I think I went throughout my pregnancy. I did go throughout my pregnancy, particularly in the later months just cause it did feel so good. And I did have, I had much more like round ligament pain. I had much more weight for my belly in my second pregnancy, so my body was physically hurting a lot. And oftentimes acupuncture was the only time I could like get up on a table and have some time for myself. So it was also just like a break from work and it was definitely major mental health for me. But I went more regularly in the last couple of months. But I started going like once a week, I would say, in December.
[00:31:49] And then, you know, we're approaching the midpoint of December and I realized the baby's not coming three weeks early, we're getting closer to the due date. And I'm like, okay, I really just need to have the baby by the 23rd, but no longer. And the week before he was due, we were actually like, trying to induce labor a little bit more.
[00:32:11] And it is such a reminder, like my body was responding in like crazy ways on an acupuncture table. I'm talking about, like, I was feeling tons of Braxton Hicks. I was feeling really buzzy. Like it was taking my body and like actually really encouraging it to like contract. But the thing that people forget about acupuncture is it's not going to like make you have a baby when you're not ready to have a baby.
[00:32:35] It's really just getting those muscles toned and ready and the energy flowing. And it can be extremely helpful in induction if your body's ready to have the baby. And I was so frustrated because my body was not ready to have the baby. It just wasn't and I wanted it so badly to come early and I was just hopeful that like, I could make that happen.
[00:32:57]And it was just out of fear of this Christmas birth. It was so crazy. And it was really the childcare for my older son, because as soon as Christmas happened, I knew that our nanny was with her family. And she had a few days off and I was just mortified that the baby would come during that time and I would be left alone or not have the support for him. And we didn't really have a concrete plan of what we would do. It was like not our ideal situation, but any other day of the whole year, all the other 362 days, we would have had a childcare option for him. So it was like this narrow window I was trying to avoid.
[00:33:31] And I was like, if it happens, it happens. And so the days are ticking away and on like December 20th, I think my son got sick. Someone got sick and I got the worst stomach flu of all time. Like the worst. It was like a food poisoning, stomach flu, but it lasted for like a few days. It was like I was puking and pooping at the same time.
[00:33:57] And if you can imagine being a pregnant person who's about to have a baby who has no room. You have no room inside your body. And you're like heaving with that kind of strength that you throw up with that's uncontrollable. It was vicious. Not to mention I had like a terror of a child at that point who would have inexplicable tantrums that were like very like filled with rage, even though [?] All sorts of anxiety. This is just how they emerge. And there was like a time on like the early December twenties, where I was like bent over the toilet. And just like retching my guts out and feeling so really so sorry for myself, because I knew as soon as it happened, I'm like, if my body is sick, it's not going in labor. Your body knows. It's not going to.
[00:34:43] And I, and my midwife she's like only once have I ever had a client who had the flu during birth and it was not pretty. Like, you don't want that. Like tell your body to chill and heal. And like, you don't want to be throwing up and having the flu while you're giving birth. Your body knows how to like save and expend energy oftentimes, and it's not going to like put you through that.
[00:35:04] That was my gut feeling. And so I was also sad for myself that I definitely was going to have to like wait until my due date to have the baby. And it was a moment of grief in realizing that like I really couldn't have the baby early at this point. And the universe was trying to tell me something.
[00:35:21] But all of that heaving in the toilet -- I just have this mental image still to me, to this day of like my child coming in the bathroom, my toddler, and like basically attacking me. He was pretty physical. I think he was like hitting me and like so frustrated about something and I was just like, "Oh my God. I'm so sick. I'm so pregnant. I'm about to have a baby and I have a toddler attacking me at the same time."
[00:35:45] And it was just, you couldn't imagine it. I like couldn't wait to call my sister and like, share with her, just, it was ridiculous. It was like beyond ridiculous. It was so hard. And so I was definitely having a lot of self pity and feeling like crap and letting go of sort of this hope that I had for my early birth.
[00:36:08]And then the 23rd came and then the 24th came and I was like, well, maybe it'll go to the 26th or the 27th. Because I was two days early with my first; that's another one. Right? Your expectation for your due date often depends on how you had your first birth and going late or past my due date, which is pretty well calculated when you have IVF.
[00:36:29] There's no mystery there.
[00:36:31] Lisa: Really? I didn't know that.
[00:36:32] Adriane: Yeah. You're oftentimes you're able to know the exact moment of conception, right? I have like implantation and conception in a way where we had clarity around when we got pregnant.
[00:36:43] Lisa: Okay. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying it's common to go past your due date with IVF. Okay.
[00:36:48] Adriane: No, I don't know, I don't know what evidence there is on IVF and due dates though, but that was also very interesting. Now I wanna look at that. I bet there's data. So it was the 24th and I was like, okay, well now I just need to make it until the 27th. Because that's when we on the 27th, I think we were going to have childcare again.
[00:37:08] I was like, okay, I can do this. And so in our family, we do some of our present exchanging on Christmas Eve. That's how we've always done it. And in the morning it's really like stockings and stuff, other stuff for the kids. So it wasn't like an entire Christmas is celebrated in our house on the 25th and it's mostly just like food and family and indoor times, and people are opening gifts and we're just hanging like many other families who celebrate Christmas.
[00:37:36]No other real traditions in terms of like leaving the house or going on adventures or anything like that, although we do like to play football with the family when we're in California. But that wasn't the case this time around. So.
[00:37:49] Lisa: I would doubt that your post-stomach flu very pregnant self would have been up for football even if you'd been in California.
[00:37:55] Adriane: I wouldn't put it past me.
[00:37:57] Lisa: You wouldn't? Ok!
[00:37:58] Adriane: I've been known to like turn into like a golden retriever when someone throws a ball. Like, I will just chase it. It doesn't really matter. My animal brain takes over and I like just want to play sports and I forget what's happening.
[00:38:09] Or like, if someone's even throwing the ball to me--happens on the beach. I see people throwing and I almost go and like, I go in for the tackle.
[00:38:17] And on the 25th, I wake up, it's really pretty early in the morning. And I go to the bathroom and I pee, and it's green. Like bright, green, not dark and brown, like, like a rich pea soup. It's like, I don't know. Some sort of car fluid. It really was pretty bright and clear, but like definitively green. And I'm like, well, that does not look good. I'm like, what the hell is that?
[00:38:50] So I call my midwife on Christmas morning. It's like five. I'm like, "Hey. It's me Merry Christmas." I said, "I just went to the bathroom and my water feels a little broken and it's green. My waters broken and it's green.
[00:39:08] Lisa: It's festive amniotic fluid.
[00:39:11] Adriane: It was just exactly with the times red and green. So she said, "Well, you probably have a little bit of, you know, meconium in there, which is baby's first poop.
[00:39:22] And she said like, are you, I'm like, I'm not having contractions. I don't feel like I'm in labor. Like nothing else, just my water's broken. And it sort of bright green. And she's like, "well, if you're not an active labor, I would just like go back to bed and give yourself some time. And we'll see how it progresses."
[00:39:41] And I was mortified because in my mind, if you have your water breaking and you have a meconium in it, the clock is ticking before that becomes a real risk for your ability to have a natural birth because they want the baby out in a certain time, so you don't get sick. So I had to really ask my midwife to clarify for me, what the plan was, because I wasn't as calm as she was.
[00:40:03] She said, " If the baby was really actively in distress right now, and that's what the poop is from, you would be feeling contractions and if this meconium gets thicker and sludgier then we really know that we're having a baby who's pooping, she said, but what I think is going on with you is that you have an old poop in there; that the baby let out a little bit of poop a while ago and that's what's coloring it. But we'll know in a couple of hours to see if the color of your water's changing, because eventually if your water breaks, it should start running clear. Like it's just, it was just the first breaking, which had a little meconium in it.
[00:40:39] And I said, "Okay, that makes sense." So we hung out. We called our doula and just let her know it was up. She also had a family. I felt guilty about pulling her away from her family on Christmas Day. But basically as soon as I found out that a baby was coming soon, I was like, "Everybody up, we're doing Christmas. Like right now, like. It was--"
[00:41:01] Lisa: Time is of the essence
[00:41:02] Adriane: Time was of the essence. Open your effing presents.
[00:41:06] Lisa: So wait, what time was this approximately?
[00:41:08] Adriane: It was like six in the morning. It was sometime in the early hours. It was probably dark out. And I was like, "We're doing Christmas, everybody get it done. We need to like, get through this so that it's out of the way," because I was expecting maybe a fast labor to start happening. I didn't know; it happened very fast the first time. And it was a second baby, right? The myth of the very fast, second baby birth -- it's not a myth but it's likely. So everyone's flying through their presents and I'm still not feeling any contractions but my water is broken.
[00:41:36] And I'm having these random gushes of liquid, which is just a total inconvenience to manage. I really had no idea how difficult it was going to be to manage; it wasn't like a tiny trickle. It was like every 20 minutes I'd have like a huge gush. It could have even been more frequent than that.
[00:41:54] And I was like, okay, I'm getting everything wet. I really don't know how to prepare for this. So I had to like, I think that I sent my husband to CVS as soon as they open to get some Depends. Or maybe I had some prepared for my postpartum period. But someone got Depends for me. And that made a world of difference because then I can just literally pee my pants, like on the regular.
[00:42:16] And it was just a game changer. So Depends were on and my doula at some point came over. I want to say she came over at like eight or nine and she was like, "The water's broken. Let's just get labor going." People were like, let's get it going. So we took an early morning walk in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, and Domino Kirke was like a personal trainer. She has that energy. She came over with like a water bottle, like a plastic water bottle with like the straw. And she's like, let's go. She was in her workout gear. Like we're doing this. And so we went on a brisk walk all through Greenpoint. It was just such a beautiful Christmas morning.
[00:42:53] The sun was shining. It was really brisk. No one was out. And I was like, "Hey, this is amazing." We're like walking around and I'm not really, I'm having like really sluggish contractions that are not lasting very long. They're very short, like 30 seconds, like really just short. And they're sort of like petering out.
[00:43:12] So nothing that's like intensifying and getting more and quicker like I did with the first, it was sort of these like weak, lackluster contractions. And so we're really moving my body around. And I just remember having to go into the public bathroom at McGolrick park in Greenpoint to like swap out my Depends and being like, "This is New York. This is birth in New York." Like no one has any idea what's happening. I'm like pregnant and like leaking green fluids everywhere. Wearing like huge absorbent panties, like trying to get baby out of me, it was just so surreal and it was so beautiful. So we hiked around for a while and we get home and like maybe contractions had gotten quicker together, but they were still very far apart and it was like early labor.
[00:44:01]So my midwife says she's going to come over at some point, 'cause they're expecting the baby to come fast. And she said, "You know what, after we do this, I'll come over. And if I need to, I'll just like take a rest on your couch while you and your doula sort of like get labor going."
[00:44:16] I sent Greg my husband to my store. This is the benefits of having a baby store that rents breast pumps and has pretty much every supply you need for pregnancy and postpartum. And I said, "Go get a breast pump and bring it home and we used a breast pump to do nipple stimulation. I took homeopathic pills as part of like a birth kit to sort of encourage contractions to happen.
[00:44:40] My midwife also does homeopathy and we were just trying to speed it along. And then the afternoon happened. My midwife was thinking maybe the baby was not in a very strong, head to cervix position. Perhaps the positioning was a little off, which meant for these contractions that would come and then peter out.
[00:45:01] So she said, "What I want you to do is chest to knees, which is basically trying to put your butt up in the air like a stinkbug to encourage the baby, to turn ever so slightly so that they get really in like a firmly secure heads down position so that you can get contractions going faster. She said, "It really sucks. It's not a position that's great. It's sort of uncomfortable."
[00:45:26] Lisa: I hated it, but I loved it because it worked.
[00:45:29] Adriane: We opened the laptop and threw on Louis CK. And just like laughed and watched stuff. And Jim Gaffigan, everyone who is a parent, should see the Jim Gaffigan Mr. Universe special on parenthood, but he also has kids with home births. It's just amazing.
[00:45:46] Lisa: One of my favorites. I actually have it on my YouTube playlist. I have some comedy toward the bottom, like lots of educational stuff for the students. And then at the end, if you want some laughs to boost endorphins in labor and pregnancy, watch that. So I love that you brought that up.
[00:46:01] Adriane: Such a classic doula trick. So, you know, laugh it off while you're in this awkward stinkbug position and just hang out there for 45 minutes. So we did that and then it was time to go on another walk. It's like, well, let's go again. And it was the early afternoon at this point. I just remember because the sun had changed and we walked through Williamsburg this time.
[00:46:19] And like it's all industrial back by where we live by the waterfront of Greenpoint, as it meets Williamsburg, it was so beautiful. It was totally dead. And we were walking down the street. I was walking up people's stoops and back down and, you know, climbing stairs and really like, it was like a workout session.
[00:46:35] And by the end of the walk, I was having a hard time. Right. I was contractions were coming faster. They were more intense. I had to stop during them and breathe through them. And I was like, "Okay. Labor's happening," felt like much more serious. So we got home, I want to say like around four and I was uncomfortable and I was like, "I'm really uncomfortable now. I'm having a hard time breathing through these contractions. I need to like go be by myself."
[00:47:03] So I went downstairs and I just, I was laying on the bed and I was just sort of like having some contractions to myself, maybe I took a shower or something. And I was just sort of laboring and my voice was changing and I knew that I was heading into active labor because of the intensity of the contractions.
[00:47:22] They were definitely coming further together. It was amazing. And my midwife came down and I think this was the first time that she actually checked me. So I had never had a check of vaginal check with my first up until he was basically coming out. So she checked me and I think that I was five centimeters.
[00:47:40] So she said, we're definitely doing good. And we want to just keep this up and keep up the momentum. So like, don't stop what you're doing. Oh, God, what happened to this part? This is a little bit of a blank, Lisa. This is so crazy. I do remember they were starting to set up our birth tub. That was exciting for me.
[00:48:04] I was really excited to get in the water. It had worked really well with me for the first. Active labor was coming on and I went into the shower and like really, I was having active labor in the shower. And I remember coming out of the shower and being very conscious of how loud I was being because we're in an apartment and I was in a tiny echo-y bathroom in our basement.
[00:48:26] And I remember just like holding on to our towel rod. And, just being in the same space that I had really been in active labor with my first son and feeling like just really loud making huge noises and just sort of like coming through that same moment again was such a trip and everything was looking great. And.
[00:48:49] Lisa: Did you do any laboring on the toilet like you did in the first labor?
[00:48:53] Adriane: I didn't, I had different feelings with him. It wasn't the same speed that I was trying to control. It wasn't so forceful. It was more, just trying to keep the momentum up. And we got in the tub. And the midwife checked me and I was having lots of strong contractions that were really intense and she was, and the baby was not, and we didn't know if it was a he or she at this point.
[00:49:21]But the baby's head was not pushing past the cervix. And I was told by my midwife that I had a cervical lip. And I had been doing all this work in terms of positioning. I had been doing like hands and knees on the bed. I had, at one point, she had told me I had to climb the stairs two at a time to sort of open up my hips because we're doing everything we could to get this baby really head down. She thought maybe he was just a little asynclitic, which means his head was just a little bit off. And so we were doing all the movement tricks that we knew how to do to sort of rock him into the position he needed to be in so that he could do his own work and come through.
[00:49:59] Or the baby right. Could have been a girl at this point, spoiler alert. So, she said, "He's right at your cervix. You just have a little bit of a lip and I'm going to do something where I'm going to move it out of the way with my hand during your next contraction. And he's going to come through and it's not going to feel very good."
[00:50:17]And indeed she did this and it did not feel very good. It is really sort of aggressive and intense feeling to have anyone's hands inside of you while you're having a contraction, let alone pushing with some part of your body. It was really excruciating. But she got it out of the way. And the goal was that he would just start coming.
[00:50:38]But I would have these long contractions and he would sort of come down, but he really wasn't moving. It was like he was still a little stuck. And so at this point, my midwife said out of the tub, which is like my nightmare. I'm like, "No!" Out of the tub. You know, even my son -- my older son who is with--okay, so I haven't even filled you in on what the rest of the family was doing.
[00:50:58] Right. Cause this was my big stress. So my husband had him and took him on a long stroller walk. So he had a big nap in the middle of the day while I was able to be laboring and doing my stuff. And then really he was with my husband. So I was, I had my team of ladies and my midwife, my midwife's assistant and my doula, but my husband was not really present, but he did bring my son down at one point who was really like hearing me making crazy birding noises.
[00:51:25] And I think he still remembers. Either that or we've told them the story enough that he thinks he remembers seeing me in labor, downstairs in the basement. But he has these hazy memories and that's sort of a beautiful thing. And my husband sort of took him back upstairs, but I was really sort of going through this labor alone. Not alone--with my team, but not with him in the same way that we had before, but I didn't even know what was happening.
[00:51:48] All I knew is that my midwife told me I couldn't be in the tub anymore. And I had to start getting in all these different positions. I mean, they were trying everything. So, I was having intense contractions on hands and knees. That seemed to be a good position because she had the Doppler on my stomach to sort of hear his heart rate.
[00:52:06] And what was happening was that I would have these really intense contractions and the baby wouldn't come down very much and his heart rate would start to lower. And the midwife was very concerned about this. Not like concerned, like this is part of what happens. Like the baby gets squeezed as they're coming out, but he wasn't moving down.
[00:52:25] This wasn't a part of his moving down through the birth canal. This was signifying to her that maybe he was in a weird position. So she was moving me in lots of different positions and at one point, she told me that I was not allowed to push the baby when I felt a contraction, because she was worried that he was getting too much pressure.
[00:52:46]And, I, at the same time had, like, I had been very constipated with my second birth. I had very like well-formed poops that I was pooping and this is just a huge anxiety of mine during my first birth. I couldn't stand the fact that like I was pooping in water and people could see it.
[00:53:03] I just didn't like it. And here I was on a bed out of water where I knew people were cleaning my poop up and I just, it was awful. So next birth, note to self, I will definitely begin giving myself an enema because now I've learned, that's just something I don't want to think about during birth. Whereas other people are like, don't even worry about it, but like, there was like the smell of that.
[00:53:25] And I was just like, "Oh my God," it just felt so intense. Like my body was trying to purge everything that was inside of it, but the baby wasn't coming lower and his heart rate was going lower. And so people were trying to shift things quickly to change this in a very calm way. No one was worried. But his heart was deceling to a place where the midwife was feeling uncomfortable.
[00:53:44] This is why you choose an amazing midwife is because they don't wait until the baby's really not doing well before they make changes. You just don't want to wait till you're in the red before you make a change. Do you want to wait until you see that things are not going as green as you want, and maybe they're looking yellow. That's when you make changes.